While the FT's were traded in for second-generation power, Santa Fe went a different route with the F3A's and F7A's and rebuilt a fair number (200+) of them into CF7's at Cleburne.
Miningman M636C--- N&W did own cab units! They got them from the Wabash absorption and they operated in Canada. CN diesel shop Fort Erie. N&W 3657 first unit of a 20 unit order. ex Wabash 657 nee 1155.GMD A125 November 1950
M636C--- N&W did own cab units! They got them from the Wabash absorption and they operated in Canada.
CN diesel shop Fort Erie. N&W 3657 first unit of a 20 unit order. ex Wabash 657 nee 1155.GMD A125 November 1950
Well yeah, thats what I stated. They got them thru the absorption of the Wabash from/for their operations Detroit--Buffalo running through Southern Ontario. M636C stated theynever owned any. Maybe they did not buy any but they sure owned about 20 of them and for a long time.
These fellas came thru my adopted home town daily with their nice little red bopper caboose trailing. The Wabash paint scheme was much classier.
664 part of 20 unit order F7A built as 1155, 1155A to 1164, 1164A (A125 - A144 11/1950 - 3/1951) this was C-106 the sixth order for GMD.
670 part of 20 unit order 657-676
WAB 725 (GMD A487 3/1953) first of two F7A unit order meeting CNR 3875 at Canfield Junction. 5/18/1966 Peter A. Cox
MiningmanM636C--- N&W did own cab units! They got them from the Wabash absorption and they operated in Canada. CN diesel shop Fort Erie. N&W 3657 first unit of a 20 unit order. ex Wabash 657 nee 1155.GMD A125 November 1950
N&W owned cab units through their acquisition of the Wabash, however, they never BOUGHT any new cab units.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Another reason why cab units where preferred at first over Road switchers types aka GP or SD types was due to the Railroad worker Unions themselves. They tried to demand that every cab in the consist have a engineer and fireman in it even if it was the trailing unit in the consist. They were so bent on demanding this that Santa Fe reworked their first orders of FT's into A-b-b-b units with only 1 cab to stop the unions. UP did the same with their E units for a long time.
You're missing my point. I know the historical evolution. I'm stating given the likeness in configuration between steam and the diesel road switcher, one would think that the operational advantages would have been apparent when the first diesels were designed. The F's and E's were strictly chosen as a marketing ploy in aesthetics. The RR's were going down at the hands of the airlines, and they wanted something that resembled the nose of a DC-3.
No.
The cab unit allowed maintainers to fix things en route.
The FTs were built with the first 567 engines. The 567s were dramatically more reliable than the 201A. See McCall's "Santa Fe's Early Diesel Daze" and more authoritively Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567.
Also, there was a war on and changes were not looked on favourably.
So the FT became the standard freight unit basically by default. It was much more reliable than the EA to E2 series of passenger units, but not even EMD could have predicted that in 1939. Hundreds of them were built and the railroads liked them. Post war, they were even happier with the F3 and F7.
By this time Dilworth had realised that the power equipment was now reliable enough to put it in a hood body, since it could run without needing attention during the journey.
Alco Fairbanks Morse and Baldwin made the same change somewhat earlier, but perhaps without the degree of justification that EMD had by the time the GP7 appeared.
The change from a steam locomotive to a hood unit did occur on roads that were late converting to diesel. N&W never owned a cab unit, although they leased some.
But the cab unit was a neccesity in 1937 for the early E units and Rock Island's TAs.
Illinois Central had some big transfer units that were effectively FTs with hood bodies, but they never strayed far from a workshop, even though in retrospect they probably could have run main line freight.
Peter
challenger3980 BLS53 I never understood why it was believed that cab units were optimum for freight use. Seems a logical evolution from steam, would've been the road switcher to begin with. Always thought the RR's were attempting to emulate airliners in appearance with cab units. About all these units had going was their looks. Because the "F" units were the original road diesel, and came out 10 years before the "GP" units. The FT was released, IIRC, in 1939, the GP7, the first of the GP's was released in IIRC, October of 1949, for 10 years there WASN'T any other choice, at least from EMD. The Alco RS 1 came out in 1941, so even there it was 2 years before the railroads had a road switcher option. The road switcher simply wasn't an option, "To Begin With". Doug
BLS53 I never understood why it was believed that cab units were optimum for freight use. Seems a logical evolution from steam, would've been the road switcher to begin with. Always thought the RR's were attempting to emulate airliners in appearance with cab units. About all these units had going was their looks.
I never understood why it was believed that cab units were optimum for freight use. Seems a logical evolution from steam, would've been the road switcher to begin with.
Always thought the RR's were attempting to emulate airliners in appearance with cab units. About all these units had going was their looks.
Because the "F" units were the original road diesel, and came out 10 years before the "GP" units.
The FT was released, IIRC, in 1939, the GP7, the first of the GP's was released in IIRC, October of 1949, for 10 years there WASN'T any other choice, at least from EMD. The Alco RS 1 came out in 1941, so even there it was 2 years before the railroads had a road switcher option.
The road switcher simply wasn't an option, "To Begin With".
Doug
The Santa Fe had the A units of all their passenger F units carrying a water tank were the steam generator was supposed to have gone. The B's carried a tank up front and the generator in the back.
BaltACD With the Western carriers having longer runs than the 150 miles from Chicago to Garrett, I am certain the F series units that these carriers used had additional water capacity.
With the Western carriers having longer runs than the 150 miles from Chicago to Garrett, I am certain the F series units that these carriers used had additional water capacity.
MidlandMike Overmod MidlandMike FP7's simply were 4' longer to accommodate extra steam generation capacity. You mean to accommodate extra fuel and water for steam generation capacity, right? My source was the Second Diesel Spotters Guide. "...lengthened to supply extra steam generator and water capacity for passenger service." They show a photo of a Frisco FP7, but it does not look like in this case they utilized all the extra space underneath for extra (fuel) tank space. Here is a picture of a Reading unit that has a similar tank arrangement: https://www.trainspotted.com/photo/1245-Reading-R-903-diesel-locomotive-EMD-FP7
Overmod MidlandMike FP7's simply were 4' longer to accommodate extra steam generation capacity. You mean to accommodate extra fuel and water for steam generation capacity, right?
MidlandMike FP7's simply were 4' longer to accommodate extra steam generation capacity.
You mean to accommodate extra fuel and water for steam generation capacity, right?
My source was the Second Diesel Spotters Guide. "...lengthened to supply extra steam generator and water capacity for passenger service." They show a photo of a Frisco FP7, but it does not look like in this case they utilized all the extra space underneath for extra (fuel) tank space. Here is a picture of a Reading unit that has a similar tank arrangement:
https://www.trainspotted.com/photo/1245-Reading-R-903-diesel-locomotive-EMD-FP7
I think at least some FP 7 and FP 9 units had a vertical cylindrical tank on the centreline internally between the main generator and the electrical cabinet.
Santa Fe who never used FP units, always had the steam generators in the B units, and these might have had internal water tanks as well.
The B&O had a series of steam generator equipped F3's. They were purchased to head up the streamlined Columbian and other trains. In use it was found that the water capacity for the steam generator was insufficient. In real world use on the Columbian, with the engines being fueled and watered at the Robey Street coach yard in Chicago - the train being taking to Grand Central Station for passenger boarding and then the trip to the crew change point of Garrett, IN - the engines would arrive with the steam generators shut down - OUT OF WATER. The engines would be watered at Garrett and complete the rest of the run with watering facilities that had been established for the E units that hauled the bulk of B&O's diesel passenger service.
The F7's had them too?
MidlandMike RailfanGXY ... F7: Full-width cab units FP7: Full width cab unit equipped with steam heating ... F7's had a steam generator option. FP7's simply were 4' longer to accomodate extra steam generation capacity.
RailfanGXY ... F7: Full-width cab units FP7: Full width cab unit equipped with steam heating ...
...
F7: Full-width cab units
FP7: Full width cab unit equipped with steam heating
F7's had a steam generator option. FP7's simply were 4' longer to accomodate extra steam generation capacity.
Okay, I kind of understand that with the boosters (the same program explained that on the Santa Fe, only the B-units were equipped with steam generators). I'm slightly surprised that F7A's had them as well, considering how short they were lengthwise. Then again, they could just have them installed and not be able to have them work without the water supply in the B-unit...I dunno, I've never seen plain F7's working a passenger on their own without a B. At least, not until the 1980's when some railroads began equipping them with HEP for commuter service.
MidlandMikeFP7's simply were 4' longer to accommodate extra steam generation capacity.
I remember hearing on a production which Trains Magazine helped create, the F7 --> F9 change coincided more with the changes to their road switcher equivalents, the GP7 ---> GP9. Basically, like this.
7-series produces 1500 HP
GP7: 4 axle hood units
SD7: 6 axle hood units
9-series produces 1750 HP
F9, FP9, GP9, SD9 were essentially identical mechanically sans their carbody layout or number of axles (or presence of a steam generator in the F's case). EMD continued this method with its later second generation power such as the '45's and 40's. Notice that all of EMD's passenger units between the FP45 and the F69PHAC had the same horsepower as a freight unit with the same model number. All units in a number series are identical in terms of horsepower and mechanics, but vary with certain essential details. F was kept on to distinguish units having full-width bodies instead of what the F stood for on the original FT. This is because the only passenger carrier that really required new equipment were commuter systems and Amtrak. That and the introduction of turbochargers and the like eliminated the need for any special twin-engine designs (what really set the E's apart from the F's mechanically). As for the SDP40F, I can only assume the F wasn't in front because they were also built for quick-conversion to freight serivce if Amtrak ended up failing (indeed a number of them did end up in freight service on the ATSF and BNSF as SDF40-2).
Back to the 1950's, the E's pretty much stayed in their own model series as passenger traffic was drying up in the 50's, and there was little desire for a passenger-only locomotive. I imagine EMD sorta switched back to more specified models for passenger units with the DE/M30AC and F125, since they are designed more specifically for a single railroad's use (both models only have one operator so far and that's likely not going to change anytime soon), rather than being mass production units designed for various routes and railroads like the F-series that came before.
rdamon In movie Superman (1978) it became the Kansas Star.
In movie Superman (1978) it became the Kansas Star.
Thanks for that clip Mr. Damon! For thoise who don't know, the red-headed lady with the great smile is Noell Neill, the "Lois Lane" from the "Superman" TV show of the 50's, AND the "Superman" movie serials of the 40's.
That stately looking gent sitting across from her? That's Kirk Allyn, the "Superman" from the 40's serials!
And, appropriately enough, the "Kansas Star" is pulled by a "Superman Diesel!"
The circle is complete!
Explains the "Railway Crossing" Signs
In the movie it was called the "Kansas Star". In reality, it was Canadian Pacific, much of the location shooting was done north of the 49th Parallel.
This is for BaltACD, and everyone else for that matter. It's the original black and white "Superman" opener.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2l4bz1FT8U
Honestly, I find those flashing rods and spinning drivers on the GS a LOT more interesting than the "Daylight" diesels!
Another thing, in the black and white opener the revolver is a Smith and Wesson, in color, it's a Colt!
The first train looks like the Sunset Limited pulled by Daylight-painted E units.
The second train looks like either the Coast or Shasta Daylight because it has a streamlined baggage car.
There is a lot of snow in the background so perhaps it is the Shasta Daylight.
Superman is everywhere!
I asked a friend of mine who was a bit of a media historian why shows in the 50's like "Superman," "The Lone Ranger," "The Cisco Kid" and others were shot in color when there were so few color TV's at that time.
His answer was so simple I was surprised I didn't think of it myself. At that time many parts of the country didn't have television at all, so those aforementioned TV shows were shown in movie theaters as shorts. Being shot in color made them all the more exciting.
challenger3980 There were E8's, any idea why they skipped the F8 model designation? Doug
There were E8's, any idea why they skipped the F8 model designation?
It seems that EMD wanted to align the model designations to match with the introduction of the 567C engine, which was the most major upgrade of the 567 series.
So since the E-8 used the 567B engine but was otherwise a significant upgrade from the E-7, the lowest available number was 9 for the E-9.
Accordingly, the upgrade of the F-7 became the F-9 and the upgrade of the GP-7 became the GP-9 and the SD-7 changed to the SD-9.
After this the designations became based on horsepower with the introduction of turbochargers. No new E or F unit types were introduced, but there were GP-18, GP-20, SD-18 and SD-24.
With the next upgrade, the loco intended to be the GP-22 became the GP-30 and the numbers no longer related to power.
The original episodes were shot in black and white and had a publicity shot of a GS with single headlight ... even as a kid I thought it looked fat with that arrangement.
When they went to color, they shot what was available then... with good, saturated color if my childhood memory is not exaggerating. That was I believe E units in Daylight colors, a beautiful train ... but ISTR single-note horns; could that be right?
in those days of the little "C" in TV Guide to show the rare color programs, you never knew whether you'd get a B&W or color episode.
Paul_D_North_Jr Firelock76 . . . Cab units? Here at the "Fortress Firelock" Lady Firestorm and I call them "Superman diesels." Wonder why? Well, check this out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0swAKS-5qA . . . What railroad is that - Southern Pacific? - PDN.
Firelock76 . . . Cab units? Here at the "Fortress Firelock" Lady Firestorm and I call them "Superman diesels." Wonder why? Well, check this out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0swAKS-5qA . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0swAKS-5qA . . .
What railroad is that - Southern Pacific?
- PDN.
Yes those were SP locomotives & trains shown.
My memory of the Superman opening credits pictured a shot of the Daylight steam locomotive, not diesel.
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