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Long Hood Versus Short Hood

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Posted by owlsroost on Monday, April 03, 2017 4:01 AM

The UK class 70 diesel (designed by GE) is even uglier - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_70_(diesel)

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Posted by traisessive1 on Monday, April 03, 2017 12:30 PM

Nearly all of CN's road power has long hood ditch lights.  Not all of them, but the majority. The cowl units and most of the units with desktop controls do not have long hood ditch lights. There are of course others as well. 

Fumes entering the cab during long hood operation is a very real safety issue.

The newer road power with the massive flares on the long hood make long distance visibility down the track impossible unless you're sitting on the floor or using the mirror. 

Our CN Canadian agreement states they MUST dispatch units short nose forward for road crews whenever possible and that the crew can turn the unit at the first available opportunity if they had to leave long hood.

10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ... 

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Posted by Kielbasa on Monday, April 03, 2017 12:59 PM

The EMD units we have don't seem to have the fume issues that the GEs do. I believe it has to do with where the stack is located in relation to the cab. For whatever reason, to my nose, the EMDs don't smell as "fumey" as our older GEs anyway. Some of our Dash 9s are honorary steam engines anyway, I've been on power that will block out the sun at notch 8. Flat radiators make all the difference in the world, those flares are impossible to see around. We have a signal just outside the yard that sits around a curve on double track that you can't see until you're right on it, running long hood we always creep across the bridge until we get a  good look at it. I've been tempted to go stand on the porch a few times. 

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Posted by BigJim on Monday, April 03, 2017 3:34 PM

BaltACD
They can and will dispatch any engine consist that they can talk an Engineer into taking.  Long hood, short hood - it don't matter.

Not around Roanoke they won't! And, did you not read where I said the foreman wouldn't let me take an EMD out long hood forward?

.

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Posted by Ulrich on Monday, April 03, 2017 4:39 PM

The camera is a good idea. For the price of a locomotive I think the manurfacturer can throw in a camera or two to increase visibility for the crew. Cameras are used on construction sites to aid crane operators, so designing something that will survive the rigors of railroading shouldn't be a moonshot.  And makes more sense than silly inward facing cameras. 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Monday, April 03, 2017 5:32 PM

cascadenorthernrr

Ok so I recentely received Kalmbach's "A Model Railroader's Guide To Coal Railroading" and in it was a photo of a set of Fairbanks Morse Trainmasters with the leading unit long hood forward was this because of lack of turning facilities, coincidence, or engineer preference? 

It's Train Master, not Trainmaster. The former is the FM locomotive, the latter is the railroad official. :)

If you're curious, based on pictures I've seen, I believe that all of Canadian Pacific's (At least as-built; Reconfigured around 1960), all of Lackawanna's (Although they weren't shy at running them backwards), all of Virginian's, all of Reading's, and all of the Pennsylvania Railroad fleet of Train Masters were delivered with the long hood the front. 

I believe that out of the factory, only the Wabash (Usually photographed with the short hood leading after the merger, so I don't think N&W ever reconfigured them), Southern (Rare to see a picture of one leading, but only ever seen short hood forward pictures), and Southern Pacific units had the short hood as the front. 

Central of New Jersey had dual controls for commuter trains and thus could easily lead in either direction, but I don't think Southern Pacific's ever did despite spending their career in such service. Photographs always seem to show them with the short hood leading, and with no wings at the rear. 

Not sure about Canadian National's sole unit. Judging by early pictures, I have a feeling it was delivered long hood forward. But a picture in the twilight of its career shows it leading short hood first, with a bell mounted above the short hood. Reconfigured when it was modified for Toronto hump service, perhaps? 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, April 03, 2017 6:44 PM

BigJim
BaltACD

Not around Roanoke they won't! And, did you not read where I said the foreman wouldn't let me take an EMD out long hood forward?

Self evident that the foreman was not officer material.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 11:27 AM

owlsroost

The UK class 70 diesel (designed by GE) is even uglier - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_70_(diesel)

 

GE designed and built at Erie..

 

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 3:56 PM

In regards to cameras.  I know in my industry we use alot of them and since we now have a multiplexing system on our trailers to communicate with our tractors to show any faults in our ABS on a dash light it is only a matter of time before your going to see 2 things more for at least at my bosses carrier.  First will be backup lights on our trailers and second will be backup cameras.  Heck we have cameras that can handle the vibration and bouncing that some of the roughest interstates the USA throws at them for years at a time without failing. 

 

The models we run now are factory installed smaller than a laser on the mouse and offer 120 degrees field of view.  We also get 7 MP quailty day or night with the software we run and the best part is makes it hard for lawyers to say 4 months later to claim our driver was at fault when we go oh you want to see the accident from our perspective. 

 

I guess what I'm getting at is there are cameras out there that offer the needed reliablity and range for what your companies might need.  If they can survive what we put them thru heck the RR's might want to give them a try

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 4:55 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
I guess what I'm getting at is there are cameras out there that offer the needed reliablity and range for what your companies might need.  If they can survive what we put them thru heck the RR's might want to give them a try

The worst truck enviornment is just a walk in the park when compared to the railroad enviornment.  Remember on a locomotive you have an electrical generator using 4000+ HP to keep it spinning and outputting upto 1500 amps at 600 volts. Then you have dynamic brakes kicking in where 6 traction motors per unit become electrical generators and the electrical power they generate by slowing the trains has to be disappated into heat and you are dealing with two or three units under these conditions. Throw in another curve of operating under electrical catenary of 25KV + or -.  Great enviornments for the error free operation of millivolt electronics - it can be done, but not on the cheap.

Keeping the 'forward facing' camera currently installed, from what I have heard, is far from maintainence free, and their installation is far from cheap, but they do help out with the law suits.

Believe it or not, in the days of Timetable and Train Order operations where accurate time was critical in the application of the rules - it took special engineering for Bouleva to get their 'accutron' watches certified for railroad operation - and that was with 1st generation diesels.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 5:40 PM

Won't be cheap.. but chump change when compared to the cost of accidents.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 5:45 PM

Ulrich
Won't be cheap.. but chump change when compared to the cost of accidents. 

I don't know if NS has applied Forward Facing Cameras on their Long Hood Forward locomotives.  I do know that they, along with the rest of the Class 1 carriers have been installing Forward Facing Cameras to their locomotive fleet.

Locomotives DESIGNED to run long hood forward still exist and to use them short hood forward is to run them backward.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by Kielbasa on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 6:58 PM

I haven't seen one. The few long hood engines we have are stuck on the hump as remotes, and the road power is usually trailing or waiting for a new cab. 

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 8:38 PM

CN ran all of its first generation road switchers long hood first.. not sure the engineers of the day enjoyed looking down a long black hood, but I've read that most wanted a covered wagon leading if it was available. From an "aesthetics" perspective long hood forward looks better though.. at least to me. 

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Posted by Kielbasa on Thursday, April 06, 2017 2:54 AM

It certainly makes the job more of a team effort! I tend to like having all that mass in front of me in the event somebody makes a bad decision. Some years ago a southbound at the AFHT nailed a fertilizer truck that engulfed the lead motor in flames and luckily the crew was able to bail. And the locals have been known to toss bricks and propane tanks off the bridges. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 06, 2017 6:17 AM

Ulrich
CN ran all of its first generation road switchers long hood first..

CN's US subsidiaries had dual controls on their GP9s and RS11s.  Central Vermont marked the "F" on the long hood end of the frame, but often ran them short hood forward.  In the late 1970s and early 1980s, the B&M pool trains CVSP/SPCV and CVED/EDCV usually drew a mix of B&M and CV first generation power.  If a CV unit was leading, it usually ran long hood first, if a B&M unit, short hood.  CV's "Rocket" piggyback train usually ran with an ex-DW&P RS11 long hood first in the 1980s.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, April 10, 2017 9:43 AM

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by VGN Jess on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 1:23 AM

You didn't mention the railroad of the F-M Train Masters, but both Virginian RWY and Southern RR, ran all 1st generation diesels LH forward for: 1) supposed engine crew safety in the event of a collision, and 2) most 1st generation diesel engineers were used to steam (with that big boiler forward of the cab).

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Posted by LensCapOn on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 7:43 AM

NP Eddie

 The NP paid ALCO $550. per unit for have them setup short nose forward, probably to the engine crew would not have to breathe in exhaust.

Ed Burns

Retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis.

 

What exhaust?

 

(blink, blink)

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 11:31 AM

I don't know this with certainty, but I do not believe that Southern's Train Masters were setup with the long hood the front.

While they spent the bulk of their career essentially as booster units, I've seen two pictures of them leading a train and they were both short hood forward. Furthermore, the F is at the short hood end, as is the bell. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 3:56 PM

Even though Southern usually operated long hood forward, many units had dual controls.  The Train Masters may have had dual controls.

SP painted "wings" on the long hood of its dual-control passenger GP9s in the black widow scheme and the bloody nose scheme.  They lost the long hood wings in the 1974-1976 GP9E program rebuild, though they retained dual controls.

Soo Line's lone dual control GP9, WC 2555, was often used long hood forward on the St. Paul-Owen WI "Laker" connection.  In the old Soo Line scheme, it had the nose emblem on both ends.

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Posted by ATSFGuy on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:11 PM

What's it like to operate a locomotive "in reverse"?

Is it different since the desktop controls are behind you?

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Posted by Kielbasa on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:24 PM

Turn sideways or use the mirror. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:12 PM

I believe it's just the style, for visibility, to generally run locomotives short hood forward; excepting in switcher use, where I would imagine it's much more dependent on which end is facing the load you're connecting, convenient loops/wyes for reversing, that sort of stuff. I'm not "in the know" but that's the impression I've gotten from my reading: I recall seeing a reference to research that long hood forward didn't bring significant crash safety improvements with the introduction of safety cabs, contrasted with the improved visibility. In low-speed, frequent-stopping usage as switching, I believe that the visibility increase is not as important.

Of course this is just the impression I've gotten from my reading, not a professional or particularly learned (yet.)

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:16 PM

kgbw49

Once in a blue moon, Norfolk Southern still dispatches a train "Southern style"...oft times these are reported on sites like Railpictures.net...this particular picture is captioned as an SD70M leading...

Image result for norfolk southern long hood forward

This one was reported as NS 252...

Image result for norfolk southern long hood forward

This one was reported as NS 833...

Image result for norfolk southern long hood forward

This one was reported as a BNSF Peavine train from Phoenix where the scheduled leader was bad-ordered and the NS unit that otherwise would have been second in line was "lead-capable" with the long hood and so was dispatched long hood forward...

Image result for norfolk southern 9376

Here is an SD40-2 on NS 305 as recently as March 18, 2016...you can tell by the dust it is kicking up that it is still bringing its A game after all these years and is really moving along...

Image result for norfolk southern long hood forward

I would surmise that Norfolk Southern still needing locomotives for mine runs, even though coal is down, would have a need to have more units set up to run long hood forward.

 

 

I hadn't seen pictures of NS units running long hood forward... I just love how that looks, especially the SD70M and SD40-2 with their less prominent cowling (I think that's the proper term for that?) Remind me of old steamers, something about the engineers behind the big beast they're controlling is neat to me.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 12:37 AM

I don't know industry, but I've lurked around enough DIY electronics boards to know that hobbyists make their own stuff all the time for just as harsh conditions, so professional engineers at the manufacturers certain can. Even cheap cars are coming with backup cameras now, so I'm genuinely surprised to find out that locomotive engineers aren't given at least the same; given the size and cost of locomotives, I would think that sensor packages at least equal to, if not more comprehensive than, say a Tesla, would be standard. A ~$100k car has enough awareness between at least two cameras, radar, and ultrasonic sensors to be able to drive itself in highway conditions... locomotives are multimillion dollar vehicles with the capability to do far more in damage if something goes really wrong, and they're handled by experienced and skilled engineers. The real cost of adding a few cameras and a small LCD, would hardly put a dent in the total cost of the locomotive; off-the-shelf commercial-grade components would run at most a couple thousand dollars, and would be like mirrors but better (just like with automobiles.)

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Posted by Kielbasa on Thursday, May 04, 2017 11:02 AM

As someone said once before about the subject of backup cameras on engines, there is a huge difference between commercial grade and railroad grade. The vibration alone will destroy just about anything. When you're sitting in the seat there are already enough screens to pay attention to, especially with leader and PTC, and one more is not the answer. The console is almost as high as the roof now. Plus that's why we have conductors, no cameras needed. 

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, May 05, 2017 9:47 PM

Thanks for the correction!

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Posted by ATSFGuy on Friday, May 05, 2017 10:08 PM

Is it me or do those straight GE radiator grills look like "wings"?

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