oltmannd The Southern used to run what the called "radio" trains from the 70s into the 80s (or 90s?) https://goo.gl/photos/9Hf52pPKn6EtMfyU7
The Southern used to run what the called "radio" trains from the 70s into the 80s (or 90s?)
https://goo.gl/photos/9Hf52pPKn6EtMfyU7
In the photo in "Oltmannd" 's post; the car to the right of the locomotive which looks like a box car [partially lettered: SOUT 905] is the car that contained all of the LOCOTROL radio equipment. These cars were M.U.ed to the remotely controlled locomotives and received the command radio signals from the head end lead locomotive. These lead locomotives had the sending radio equipmemt mounted inside the high short hood. Back in the 1960's thru 1980's these lead radio equipped locomotives on the Southern Railway could be inentified by their numberboards - black numbers on white backgrounds. As opposed to all other Southern locomotives which had white numbers on a black background.
Paul MilenkovicThat looks to be a mighty long list of rules. A lawyer friend-of-the-family once offered that for every warning sticker you see on a consumer product, there had been an accident followed by a lawsuit. There must have been an accident on that Big Hill for every one of those rules?
A lawyer friend-of-the-family once offered that for every warning sticker you see on a consumer product, there had been an accident followed by a lawsuit.
There must have been an accident on that Big Hill for every one of those rules?
More than one! Once is just an accident. More than one is something that is beyond accidental and needs a rule.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
That looks to be a mighty long list of rules.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
rockymidlandrr NorthWest rockymidlandrr Why an odd number of axles? Steam rule holdover? Strange that it isn't a multiple of 4 or 6. Only thing I can figure is it will allow you to use a AC engine and one DC engine in helper service (9 and 6 powered axles).
NorthWest rockymidlandrr Why an odd number of axles? Steam rule holdover? Strange that it isn't a multiple of 4 or 6.
rockymidlandrr
Why an odd number of axles? Steam rule holdover? Strange that it isn't a multiple of 4 or 6.
Only thing I can figure is it will allow you to use a AC engine and one DC engine in helper service (9 and 6 powered axles).
Excerpt from CSX Timetable for Mountain Sub - Grafton to Cumberland - which authorizes two AC's as allowed Helper power on the grades and potentially more when specifically authorized.
NorthWest rockymidlandrr Helper service system wide is restricted to 15 powered axles On CSX. Why an odd number of axles? Steam rule holdover? Strange that it isn't a multiple of 4 or 6.
rockymidlandrr Helper service system wide is restricted to 15 powered axles On CSX.
BaltACD: Interesting. I would have thought that steel cabooses would have allowed more HP. Thanks for the information.
rockymidlandrrHelper service system wide is restricted to 15 powered axles On CSX.
Helper service system wide is restricted to 15 powered axles On CSX. When DP was introduced it was determined on some coal trains that DP could be ran in the middle. So instead of having three 110 car coal trains with 3 engine per, you have two 165 car trains with 4 engines per train. This also allows the manned pushers to do their thing on the rear too.
Now the 165 car trains have 18 powered axles on the front and 18 in the middle in DP helper service, 3 over the legal limit. But can't have rules getting in the way can we?
PA Code § 33.53. Pusher engines. All common carrier railroads operating in this Commonwealth shall promulgate or modify existing operating rules and procedures for the government of their respective employes so as to require that the operation of a pusher engine or engines behind an occupied cabin or caboose car, in train, shall be used subject to the following conditions: (1) If the horsepower to be used by a pusher engine or engines behind a cabin or caboose exceeds 3,500, the train crew shall, before such a move is made, vacate the cabin car and occupy the pusher engine or a cabin car or caboose behind the pusher engine or engines, and the train shall be brought to a stop before the pusher engine or engines are detached. (2) The practice of ‘‘cutting off on the fly’’ pusher engines behind occupied cabin cars shall be limited to those instances in which the horsepower used by the pusher engine does not exceed 3,500.
All common carrier railroads operating in this Commonwealth shall promulgate or modify existing operating rules and procedures for the government of their respective employes so as to require that the operation of a pusher engine or engines behind an occupied cabin or caboose car, in train, shall be used subject to the following conditions:
(1) If the horsepower to be used by a pusher engine or engines behind a cabin or caboose exceeds 3,500, the train crew shall, before such a move is made, vacate the cabin car and occupy the pusher engine or a cabin car or caboose behind the pusher engine or engines, and the train shall be brought to a stop before the pusher engine or engines are detached.
(2) The practice of ‘‘cutting off on the fly’’ pusher engines behind occupied cabin cars shall be limited to those instances in which the horsepower used by the pusher engine does not exceed 3,500.
Makes no difference if wood or steel.
BaltACD: That certainly is reasonable with a wood caboose. Did the same restriction apply when steel cabooses were used?
Pennsylvania had a law that no more than 3500 HP could shove against an occupied caboose. The fix was to have the rear end train crew ride the helper power, therefore the caboose wasn't occupied. I don't know if the law is still in effect, cabooses no longer exist on through freights.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
VGN Jess I believe it was available from 1967 on. Weren't manned helpers usually used at the rear of the train, not mid train?
I believe it was available from 1967 on. Weren't manned helpers usually used at the rear of the train, not mid train?
Each road had/has its typical practices, which may not hold even system wide.
The advantage of cut in is that you can safely cut in more power than you can safely put on the rear end and especially behind the caboose.
The advantage of rear end is that helper is easier to add/remove.
The GN over the Cascades, now BNSF Scenic Sub, in the early 1960's ran two pair of trains daily with F/GP 7 and 9 units. Grade C draft gear, 240,000 limit. Figure each unit just under 60,000# TE. Ran four on the point 240K TE and six cut in behind 60% of the tonnage, or 3,900 tons. With full tonnage train in normal state climbing the hill the lead units pulled 2600 tons, the cut in shoved 1300 tons and pulled 2600 tons, all with a 100 ton rounding error. With radio it took about 30 minutes to cut helpers in and about the same to cut out.
GN wanted helpers, then two units would probably have been the limit behind the caboose.
The B&O on Cranberry Grade coal trains with SD-35/40 units favored two unit rear helpers that cut of from the occupied caboose on the fly. Comming from Wenatchee WA, I was so astounded at the rear helpers behind the occupied caboose that I do not recall whether or not they had mid train helpers. I suspect they did since such units were good for only about 1200 tons each on the grade.
The point is that it depends on the territory.
Mac
CPR tested and then embraced Locotrol for unit coal trains in the west in the late 1960s. Over time as electronics improved Locotrol underwent several generations of improvement and was expanded to other bulk trains and eventually intermodal and manifest trains. I believe the original Locotrol could only handle one DPU set (CPR called them slaves at the time) but have no idea which new version enabled the additional DPUs. I now see some trains with a mid-train DPU, others with a tail end DPU, and others with both mid and tail end DPU, of either one or two ACs.
I think CPR was the most loyal user of Locotrol, devising how to work around the continuity problems of the initial versions. A number of US roads did try the early versions of Locotrol with varying degrees of success. I don't know if any kept using it continuously throughout the decades of its development. Of course today everybody has adopted it.
YoHo1975 coopers How far back did LOCOTROL go? I didn't think DP was super common before the 90's. Could some of those SP trains back in the 70's have been manned helpers? I know BN used manned helpers back in the day in my state. They'd hook up at Balmer Yard in Seattle to push a train over Stevens Pass (Scenic Subdivision). MRL and BNSF still use manned helpers. There are other threads here that talk about this, but the super brief history is that it started out in the 1960s and was typically installed in an unpowered Locotrol car connected to the Engines. It was then placed in Locomotives, most famously the 1970s era "Snoot nose" SD40(T)-2 series of ATSF, SP, UP. Basically the 123" nose contained the locotrol equipment. What changed in the late 90s is that GETS (GE Transportation) bought Harris Controls which owned Locotrol at the time. DPU is a genericized name. Locotrol is a brand name.
coopers How far back did LOCOTROL go? I didn't think DP was super common before the 90's. Could some of those SP trains back in the 70's have been manned helpers? I know BN used manned helpers back in the day in my state. They'd hook up at Balmer Yard in Seattle to push a train over Stevens Pass (Scenic Subdivision). MRL and BNSF still use manned helpers.
How far back did LOCOTROL go? I didn't think DP was super common before the 90's. Could some of those SP trains back in the 70's have been manned helpers? I know BN used manned helpers back in the day in my state. They'd hook up at Balmer Yard in Seattle to push a train over Stevens Pass (Scenic Subdivision). MRL and BNSF still use manned helpers.
There are other threads here that talk about this, but the super brief history is that it started out in the 1960s and was typically installed in an unpowered Locotrol car connected to the Engines.
It was then placed in Locomotives, most famously the 1970s era "Snoot nose" SD40(T)-2 series of ATSF, SP, UP. Basically the 123" nose contained the locotrol equipment.
What changed in the late 90s is that GETS (GE Transportation) bought Harris Controls which owned Locotrol at the time.
DPU is a genericized name. Locotrol is a brand name.
Ah okay thanks! Forgot it went back that far.
BaltACD: Thank you.
To all: Thank you for your many responses. My original query was (and I failed to mention it) primarily focused on the period 1969-1979 when the HP range was 2,000 to 3,000 and more locomotives were needed (particularly on the western roads, eg...Cajon, Soldier Summit, Marias Pass, Donnor Pass, etc...) than in todays time. I had seen SP on Tennessee Pass and DRGW over Soldier Summit using up to six-7 (6-7) locomotives mid train. So when I read that LOCOTROL was good for up to four (4) locomotives...well you can imagine my neophyte confusion. THanks again to all who took their time to help me understand!!
VGN JessWow! Any idea what the avg. track speed was and the avg. consist speed?
A old thread devoted to it
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/166689.aspx
Wow! Any idea what the avg. track speed was and the avg. consist speed?
UP 18000+ foot test train from Texas to Long Beach - 2 mid train DPU's and a rear end DPU
Wouldn't it be interesting to be an engineer operating a train with 4 single locos eveenlly spaced in a train. Wonder what handling characteristics would be observed ? Why this configuration ? Suppose several locals picked up cars and combined the train to some destination and then split at another main yard ?.
RME: Thanks. I think your 2nd paragraph answers my original question, ie...if I have one (1) midtrain DPU, I could have as many as 5 or 6 locomotives controlled by the lead engine. In reading about LOCOTROL, it sounded to me like only up to four (4) locomotives in the entire train consist could be controlled via LOCOTROL but I think I understand now that the four (4) max referenced refers to up to four (4) separate DPUs in a train consist, each which could conceivably have > 4 locomotives each.
VGN JessBaltACD: Beaulieu told me that: "Each of the up to 4 locomotives controlled via Locotrol(DP), can control further locomotives via MU cables." From your example this train has three (3) DPU consists plus one (1) lead. If my understanding is correct, how many locomotives are maximum LOCOTROLLED within each of those three? I see two (2) consists with just three (3) locomotives (ie..< 4) but the end of train consist has five (5) which is > four (4)? All i'm really trying to get an answer to is: What are the maximum number of consectutive locomotives, in DPU mode, that can be controlled by the lead? I think the answer is: no > four locomotives in no > four consists behind the lead; is that correct?
All i'm really trying to get an answer to is: What are the maximum number of consectutive locomotives, in DPU mode, that can be controlled by the lead? I think the answer is: no > four locomotives in no > four consists behind the lead; is that correct?
Maximums are set by rules. Theory says that a unlimited number of engines can be operated by MU control.
My understanding is that DPU permits 4 additional engine consists to be controled from the lead engine consist. As with my previous statement, in theory a unlimited number of engines could be operated as a part of each DPU engine consist.
All carriers have rules that govern the operation of engine consists and DPU engine consist. Those rules may vary a little from carrier to carrier.
VGN JessIf only UP TO FOUR (4) consecutive locomotives can be controlled via LOCOTROL, then how could a train have five (5) in the midtrain DPU w/o a crew? How were these 5 locomotives operating?
You're still looking at the 'consecutive' wrong -- in the fictional train, there are 80 cars between 'each' of those 'consecutive' locomotives.
The 'five midtrain units' represent ONE Locotrol-controlled unit, MUed to four followers with conventional cables. (It's only a coincidence that there are four units MUed to the Locotrol-equipped one).
Now, in Balt's example, go back 80 more cars. There are some more locomotives. ONE of them is another of the four Locotrol-controlled units, and again, the rest of the locomotives at that position in the train are connected in conventional MU.
Is that clearer? If not I'll try to explain it in different language -- PM me.
Jeff: Are there only 4 engines in the mid-train consist, because of: A) company or operational policy or B) because four (4) is the maximum number controlled by LOCOTROL?
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