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B & O PAs ?

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B & O PAs ?
Posted by Train Girl on Monday, September 26, 2016 5:20 PM

Does anyone know if the B&O ever owned any six axle PA locomotives?  They had four axle FAs but I can't find any mention of PAs on any of the diesel rosters, or archives. 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 9:52 AM

Never did.

The only northeast PA's were on the Pennsy, New Haven, Erie (And subsequently, the Erie Lackawanna), Lehigh Valley, New York Central (And subsidiary Pittsburgh & Lake Erie), Wabash, and the Nickel Plate.

If you have a collection of back issues or one of the DVD collections, Trains ran an excellent overview about their career in the November 1966 issue, just as the PA era was winding down. Only were left on the Santa Fe, Rio Grande, and the Southern Pacific at this time. 

And none of those were long for this world other than the lucky quartet on the Santa Fe that went on to enjoy a second career, surviving to this day as museum pieces in two countries. 

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Posted by Train Girl on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 10:11 AM
Thanks Leo! I'm guessing they opted for "Es" instead?
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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:01 PM

Yeah, they bought a decent sized fleet of E7's, E8's, and E9's during the PA era.

Among their other passenger purchases during the postwar years, they also ordered GP7's and F3's with steam generators. And we can't forget their 10 FA2's and 5 FB2's in their FA fleet which were equipped with steam generators and saw some passenger use, especially for extras like troop trains. And I bet there were others like some of their large GP9 fleet. 

I believe that they also inherited some FP7's from the C&O, but I've only ever seen pictures of them leading freight trains. Whether or not they ever handled passenger runs or even still had their steam generators by then, I don't know. 

Edit: And here's a GP9.

http://www.borail.org/6607.aspx

I'm no expert on the B&O, but they had a sizeable passenger business and I suspect a good portion of it was handled not by streamlined diesels or RDC's, but by EMD Geeps. 

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Posted by Train Girl on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 2:24 PM

I always liked their blue/grey passenger geeps, very nice looking.  They usually headed up school patrol trips from Wheeling, WV. to Washington DC.  in the 60's. All gone now, kinda sad, the beautiful station is still there and being used by a community college, it has a small museum inside.

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Posted by ACY Tom on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:32 PM

B&O started with EA's in AB combinatiions, then bought E6 AB combinations. These were followed by E7 AA sets and later E8 A's and B's and E9 A's and B's. Some of these latter units were rebuilt from old EA's. 

F units in passenger service were a mere seven AB F3 sets. These didn't pan out as planned and eventiually ended up on secondary trains, finally being renumbered and reassigned to freight service.  I believe those units kept their steam generators and high speed gearing for quite a while after the reassignment.

Twenty F3AA freight sets were delivered with steam generator in one unit and extra water capacity in the other for operation on lines in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Then ten more F3AA (phase IV) sets followed for operation in the general territory around Wheeling-Pittsburgh-Bulffalo with the same setup. These were freight engines, but could be pressed into passenger service if needed. These latter ten sets were later spliced with F7B units to eliminate helpers. After that, additional freight F7 and FA units were also delivered with steam generators. 

Passenger GP's were mostly used on commuter trains out of Washington and Pittsburgh, and a few selected secondary/branch runs. Around 1960, the three cars of B&O train 17 & 18 were handled behind E units east of Akron as part of trains 9 & 10. From Akron to Cleveland, a torpedo tube passenger GP was used. GP's were also used on many specials, especially on weekends when they weren't needed for commuter service. I once saw a passenger GP in service behind an E7A on the westbound Shenandoah (no. 7) in Akron, but this was probably due to the failure of the assigned second unit, and was a rare occurrence.

Many of these passenger and freight sets were delivered with the intention that they would regularly operate with their assigned companion unit(s), and they usually operated that way until some time around the 1950's. Then sets were broken up, and units might operate with any other available unit. Geographical limits were also eventually relaxed.

FP7's from C&O came much later, and were probably never used in passenger service by B&O.

As to the original question, B&O never owned a PA unit. The only ones I ever saw in that livery were in HO scale, by Athearn, and they were bogus.

I would add Southern to the list of roads that operated PA's in the East. Maybe Virginia is more properly thought of as the South, but any engine that made its way into DC probably ought to be included, IMO.

Tom

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Posted by Train Girl on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:54 PM

I came across a Con-Cor N scale PA1/PB B&O unit in the blue/grey paint scheme, which prompted my search.  Obviously some model manufactures don't vet their designs.  

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Posted by ACY Tom on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 7:57 PM

They will produce what sells. I had forgotten about N scale. Now that you mention it, I think Con Cor (or somebody) also made an equally bogus B&O DL-109.

For modeling purposes, any EMD E unit would be OK for B&O except for some of the unusual uniques (E1; E2). B&O never had an E7B, but even that would be OK since E6B's were visually identical.

Tom

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Posted by Train Girl on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:09 PM

Thanks for the info, Tom.  I've been modeling in N scale for some time now and volunteered for the Hocking Valley Scenic Railway for several years.  I'm not licensed but worked my way up to driving their C&O GP-7 and a GP-10 they have.  Lot of fun! 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, September 27, 2016 8:55 PM

Southern's PA's were bought to replace the DL-109's on the Tenneseean between Bristol and Memphis, with spares handling the Chattanooga-Memphis local.

So I think it's fair to exclude them from a list of Northeastern PA's. Southern's service into the Northeast was the domain of FP7's and E units, although it's impossible to definitively state that one never wandered into D.C. at least once.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, September 29, 2016 7:54 PM

Leo, I doubt that any Southern PA ever went north and east of Bristol. I did not see either the Tennessean or the Chattanooga-Memphis local often when the PA's were the power, but, considering their schedules, I have the impression that this service kept the Alco's busy, with no opportunity for sight-seeing.

It is my understanding that as soon the Southern's E's began running through, the PA's were sent to Atlanta and stayed there until they were disposed of.

Johnny

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Saturday, October 01, 2016 1:03 AM

 

 

OT Re PAs.

About 1970 we acquired a colour TV and not long after, this film was aired.

https://obscuretrainmovies.wordpress.com/2015/04/04/denver-and-rio-grande-1952/

And noticed these images of DRG PAs in this early paint scheme.

https://obscuretrainmovies.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/drg06.jpg

https://obscuretrainmovies.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/drg07.jpg

Not long after I mentioned to another guy about the DRG PAs 'In the Silver' and he told me that never happened and that the Yellow and Black was on there from Alco GE.

In spite of the film I wasn't going to argue with his right-at-all-costs manner. Couldn't win 'without proof'.

Glad for the Internet and the finding of these images. Vindication of a sort much, much later.



Waste of two old steam locomotives in the film, but, they had little value, then. Waste of TNT also, said another fellow I wired the images to who had never seen the film at all.

I notice in the-just-after-the-wreck scene, the bells are already gone.

Rail fans lurking in the woods?? Hyman-Micheals?

Another OT.

Not that long ago this PA still languished in Brazil. Broad Gauge.

http://pre08.deviantart.net/c9e9/th/pre/i/2014/087/d/9/abandoned_alco_pa_2_by_sd40_2-d7c01nm.jpg

3 Sets of Erie-Built trucks, 6 trucks in all, were salvaged from CPR's rail welding plant train and two used under the 'NKP 190'. Another two were earmarked for the remaining PA brought back from Mexico, leaving one set spare?

Thoughts not really worth a thread of their own??


Thank You.

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Posted by vbeach on Tuesday, October 04, 2016 1:32 AM

I checked Curt Tillotson's book on Southern Diesels and it said that Southern bought six PA's in 53 and traded them in 65.  It also said that they were used mostly in service west of the Appalachians and were assigned to the NO&NE.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Wednesday, October 05, 2016 9:50 AM

vbeach

I checked Curt Tillotson's book on Southern Diesels and it said that Southern bought six PA's in 53 and traded them in 65.  It also said that they were used mostly in service west of the Appalachians and were assigned to the NO&NE.

 

 

Occasionaly, they (PA's) would find their way to Memphis, on The Tennessean.

Sam

 

 


 

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Wednesday, October 05, 2016 12:43 PM

Since they lived in Tennessee, I'd say that it was far more than occasionally. They'd of enjoyed thousands of visits to Memphis during their career. 

Excluding pictures of them sitting in a deadline in Georgia never to run again, I think i've seen one picture in total of a Southern PA outside of that state to date. So I see no reason to doubt what J. David Ingles has said about them in the pages of this magazine in his popular article that I already referenced earlier. 

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Posted by jumper on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:08 PM

Didn't the Delaware and Hudson have some ex santa Fe PA's?

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, October 11, 2016 10:53 PM

Indeed they did...

Image result for delaware and hudson pa-1

Image result for delaware and hudson pa-1

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:55 AM

I barely remember the NKP "Bluebird" PA's, but Erie/EL PA's are more firmly etched in my mind.  I only saw them in freight service so it was a surprise to me when I read JDI's article in TRAINS and found out that PA's were passenger power.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 6:15 PM

Erie PA - the locomotive, not the City...

Image result for Erie railroad PA locomotives

Nickel Plate Bluebird...

Image result for Nickel Plate Road PA-1

 

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Wednesday, October 12, 2016 10:47 PM

 

These Two PAs from Alco GE demo'ed on CNR for MLW GE.

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=23171231&id=55

Heard one reason CNR did not go with A1A Passenger Cabs was that TWO 2 Coupled would NOT fit on a One Hundred foot  100' Turntable. ( A-B )


These Demo-ed, too. From Beloit.

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=336825564&id=55

And, from EMD.

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=1342990974&id=55


A Nice view on their first trip ex CLC.

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=1251480040&id=55


Demo-ing under the Wire to kill M&SC Interurban to Granby. Three 3 equipped with S/G.

http://imagescn.techno-science.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=85021655&id=55

Note: A1A for lite trolley rail. Idler is smaller, Journal box lower.

Rad end is 'Front'.

Thank You.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, October 25, 2016 2:49 PM

vbeach

I checked Curt Tillotson's book on Southern Diesels and it said that Southern bought six PA's in 53 and traded them in 65.  It also said that they were used mostly in service west of the Appalachians and were assigned to the NO&NE.

 

That the Southern assigned engines to a particular subsidiary did not mean that they were limited to that subsidiary--or even ran on that subsidiary. 

I did not see the Tennesean often when I was in Bristol from 1954 on (its timing interfered with college)--but every time I saw it, it had PA's until the Southern engines began running through from Washington to Memphis, Birmingham, and New Orleans--and I saw only EMD products on the Pelican and Birmingham Special.

Johnny

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, October 25, 2016 5:06 PM

Image result for Alco PA locomotives

Here you go, Mr. Deggesty! They are quite the grand conveyance!

Image result for Alco PA locomotives

Image result for southern railway alco pa

Image result for southern railway alco pa

 

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Posted by guetem1 on Saturday, July 29, 2017 1:42 AM
thanks for the snap of the Southern PA's, what a treat! I had never seen them before
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Posted by Buslist on Saturday, July 29, 2017 3:38 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH

I barely remember the NKP "Bluebird" PA's, but Erie/EL PA's are more firmly etched in my mind.  I only saw them in freight service so it was a surprise to me when I read JDI's article in TRAINS and found out that PA's were passenger power.

 

The EL PAs would often arrive in Chicago in the AM after handling an overnight passenger, then would run a transfer job over to Clearing before returning to handle the passenger train going east. They could fairly reliably be seen at Hayford heading into Clearing around 10A in the early 60s.

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