UP SD70AH 8997-9061

[NorthWest]

UP is presently receiving 65 SD70AH Tier IV credit units built at Bombardier's shop in Mexico. They are numbered 8997-9061 and some of them are already out hauling trains.

Not sure why they were not built at Muncie, but I suspect that they are fully investing all their resources to SD70ACe-T4 preparation and production, which is supposed to begin sometime in 2Q 2016. (This seems a bit ambitious to me, especially since the demonstrator/testbed units haven't been on the road long.)

UP has 66 SD70ACe-T4 on order for 2Q 2016.

[kgbw49]

I have a real layman's question. How can EMD sell Tier IV credit units when it has not yet delivered an actual Tier IV unit?

Thanks for any education!

[YoHo1975]

The Credit is for Tier 3 units exceeding Tier 3 requirements, it has nothing to do with Tier 4 units. That's why GE was able to also make Tier 4 credit units before they build a production tier 4 unit as well.

[kgbw49]

Makes complete sense now. Thanks so much!

[jarodlan]

But doesn't delivery of a Tier 4 Credit Unit have to be matched by a Tier 4 unit delivered in the same year, not necesarily to the same RR. EMD wasn't able to deliver Tier 4 units in 2015, that's why no Tier 4 Credit Units left EMD in 2015.

[YoHo1975]

Correct. EMD plans to build Tier 4 units in 2016 and so they can build T4C units as well.

 

But that T4 units doesn't have to be under construction at the time the T4C unit is started. It just has to be completed some time this year. 

[NorthWest]

As noted in the opening post, UP plans to receive 66 Tier IV units sometime this quarter in addition to the 65 emissions credit units. It seems like the test program for the new SD70ACe-T4 has been unusually quick. Hopefully the reliability of the new units does not reflect this. 

[M636C]

NorthWest

As noted in the opening post, UP plans to receive 66 Tier IV units sometime this quarter in addition to the 65 emissions credit units. It seems like the test program for the new SD70ACe-T4 has been unusually quick. Hopefully the reliability of the new units does not reflect this. 

 

Do we know how long they have been actually working on the 1010 engine? Just because it has only been revealed recently, we don't know how long ago they started work on it.

 

There is a temptation to think that work on the 1010 only started when EMD announced that they were not going to offer Tier 4 versions of the 710. There may have been several years of development work on the 1010 completed by then.

 

It isn't as if Tier 4 came as a surprise.

 

There might not have been road trials in a locomotive in earlier years, since railfans would have picked up on those, but there might have been a lot of static testing any maybe even a towboat or two where a 1010 was dropped in in place of a 265...

 

Nobody noticed any strange SD90MAC-Hs doing anything did they?

 

M636C

[Leo_Ames]

China, maybe.

While it was reported that the 265H that went into their large fleet of 6,000 HP EMD powered locomotives a few years ago were little changed from what already was in use here, it wouldn't be devoid to logic to think that they'd take advantage of the biggest user of the H-Engine in the world to test improvements on a redesigned and improved evolution of it. 

China Railways, assuming that they're at least relatively satisfied with their big fleet of JT56ACe's, probably is pretty interested themselves in seeing where EMD takes this and willing to be cooperative if they were approached to test several 1010J prototypes.  

It could potentially lead to improvements that could be retrofitted to their existing fleet and if they order a successor model, the interest in putting it through its paces is obvious. 

I imagine the logistics rule it out though, so I doubt they've quietly been testing this new engine on the other side of the world. But that extensive experience with the H Engine just might've justified it. 

[NorthWest]

The folks at EMD are smart. I have no doubt that they were considering a variety of options when confronted with the deadline. However, absence of a ES44A6 blue unit program or a 434-black unit 645 program is a bit worrisome for reliability. As you are no doubt familiar with, stationary and marine application conditions are far different from locomotive applications. That EMD apparently was able to meet Tier IV with the 710 using a 1-cylinder mule but not with a locomotive is indicative of the challenges. 

Leo, my understanding is that China has effectively closed its borders to  outside equipment and requires it to be built there.

[Entropy]

NorthWest

That EMD apparently was able to meet Tier IV with the 710 using a 1-cylinder mule but not with a locomotive  

Do you have a source for this comment?

[NorthWest]

It was in a Trains Magazine article a few years ago, but I can't find exactly which one. Fred Frailey references it in his blog here: 

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2015/02/23/goodbye-electro-motive-for-now.aspx

According to this Railway Gazette International article the solution was applied to two UP SD70ACes but proved unfeasible: 

http://media.getransportation.com/sites/default/files/RGI-Dec-00-15-p28-31.pdf

[Entropy]

The way your post was you insinuated EMD had a Tier 4 710 single cylinder engine. That was reference to 4 stroke single cylinder test engine. Its mentioned in that article. 

[NorthWest]

I can't find you an exact source. The article I remember was from long ago and I may have been wrong in my interpretation of it. I had thought that EMD had gotten a mule to meet Tier IV, but I may be incorrect. However, from the article (fair use):

Using a pair of borrowed Union Pacific SD70ACes fitted with large roof boxes for emissions testing, Lenz says EMD successfully got the 710 engine up to Tier 4 requirements. But while the tests were successful, the resulting design was too heavy, too cumbersome and not cost competitive enough to be marketable. In particular, the fuel econ- omy was worse than for Tier 3.

 

[M636C]

NorthWest

Leo, my understanding is that China has effectively closed its borders to  outside equipment and requires it to be built there.

 

I think that many of the 16-265H engines used in JT56C locomotives in China were in fact completely built in China including casting the crankcases. Off the top of my head I think there were about 450 JT56C units built in total.

 

Some of these would have been built relatively recently and if the 1010J shares some mechanical features with the 265H, it is possible that EMD were able to try out changes to improve reliability over the US built engines. Either way, feedback from China may have assisted in the developent of the 1010J. You should learn a lot from 450 engines in daily use.

 

While GE were able to run the blue prototypes for a longer time than EMD appear to propose, it isn't clear how much of this time was necessary. GE weren't going to build a production Tier 4 unit before they had to because the customers were happy with the Tier 3 while they were still able to buy them.

 

Also, the Tier 4 GEVO engine has a lot of changes from the Tier 3 version so that almost no components are interchangeable. If the 1010J despite its new designation shares a lot of moving parts with the 265H, less development time might be required. We know the fuel injection and Exhaust Gas Recirculation and definitely the intercoolers are new, but the GE Tier 4 has a new crankcase and new crankshaft as well as new turbochargers. And it took GE several years to get the Tier 3 turbocharger right.

 

On the other hand, it is only fair to point out that the Tier 3 GEVO engine was more popular in China in its 16 cylinder form than the 265H, with more than 500 built (possibly also built in China).

 

M636C

[K. P. Harrier]

Thedieselshop.us website, UP section, has a revision, UP 8997-9096, 100 units!

[Shadow the Cats owner]

I took my family up to Rochelle yesterday.  We saw 8997 and 9002 run thru on 2 different trains one going east leading and one going west trailing as the 3rd engine.  Hubby said the one thing he could tell that was diffenent between them and the SD70ACE was that the SD70AH has a rounded angled roof line where the engine was and NO gasket under the cab structure at all.  That and the trucks were different also I noticed.  

[NorthWest]

 Interesting, it looks like a recent update. They must be very confident about the SD70ACe-T4 production. Does anyone know if they have it EPA Tier IV certified yet?

The only difference between an SD70ACe and SD70AH is added weight and different traction control software. The SD90MACs have the squared off long hood above the prime mover. Credit units are no different from earlier production.

Does anyone know when GE will exhaust their supply of credits? BNSF is recieving Tier III credit ES44C4s 4225-4299 this year (many are already on the road).  They are numbered right after the 4000 series Dash 9-44CWs and not the rest of the ES44C4s, including credit units to avoid conflict with ES44DCs.

[kgbw49]

These must be the credit units because they sure don't look like 1501 or 1502.

 Check it out and see what you think.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=573388&nseq=25

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/549169/

 

[M636C]

kgbw49

These must be the credit units because they sure don't look like 1501 or 1502.

 Check it out and see what you think.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=573388&nseq=25

 

 

Definitely not a Tier 4 Unit...

If the number of credit units has indeed increased, more Tier 4 units must have been ordered to provide the credit, surely.....?

M636C

[NorthWest]

M636C, those are my thoughts as well. I am a bit worried that they won't actually build enough Tier IV units this year due to bugs, certification problems or something else. I think EMD will be succesful, but I hope their decision to build a lot of credit units without having production Tier IV units doesn't end up hurting them.

[Entropy]

Shadow the Cats owner

I took my family up to Rochelle yesterday.  We saw 8997 and 9002 run thru on 2 different trains one going east leading and one going west trailing as the 3rd engine.  Hubby said the one thing he could tell that was diffenent between them and the SD70ACE was that the SD70AH has a rounded angled roof line where the engine was and NO gasket under the cab structure at all.  That and the trucks were different also I noticed.  

 

 

Few UP and BNSF SD70ACe's/AH's were fitted with fabricated HTCR-6 trucks (aka bogies) same trucks as used on SD70ACe-T4; noted in this thread linked below.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3924241

[NorthWest]

NS 1000 is testing them as well, alongside BNSF 9092 and UP 8949.

[M636C]

It is a while since I read the Tier 4 Credit Unit regulations, but does EMD have to complete the Tier 4 units earning the credit in the same calendar year,  or within twelve months of the credit unit being produced? The latter would give them more time, of course. My reading suggested that building of credit units was not limited to the first year of Tier 4 locomotive production.

M636C

[YoHo1975]

It's unclear to me if it's within the same calendar year or simply 12 months from the production of the credit unit. I suspect the latter simply because it would be hard to complete orders that came in later in the year otherwise. And Credit units are allowed for as long as there are credits available to use I would think. GE has been building them for more than 1 year.

[LOREN AANDAHL]

New UP locomotives 9017, 9018 and 9019 seen by myself yesterday in the freight yard in Mexico City north of Fortuna suburban station. Probably just delivered from Bombardier in Sahagun and soon to be sent north to the UP.