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Burlington's Chicago commuter power before the E?

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Burlington's Chicago commuter power before the E?
Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, March 05, 2016 7:33 AM

What locomotives were used after dieselization, before survivors of their E8/E9 fleet were assigned to the service due to being bumped from intercity runs after the merger and the creation of Amtrak?

They didn't own any Alco RS3's and F units were nearly extinct on the roster by the time Burlington Northern was created, for two likely candidates that lept to mind as possibilities.

Did Geeps with steam generators handle the service? 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 05, 2016 12:03 PM

CB&Q rotated their E-Units (all but E5s) into and out of the commuter pool.  CB&Q's bilevel cars were originally steam-heated, and power cars rebuilt from older commuter coaches or mainline cars took care of lighting on longer consists, with small tap generators working for two car trains.  So the predecessors of the E-Units were CB&Q ten-wheelers and pacifics.  And yes, the steam locomotives pulled bilevels from 1950 to 1952.

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:22 PM

Contrary to some posts on another thread, the C&NW did not originate bilevel gallery cars in 1955 with cars 1-16 from St. Louis Car.  The CB&Q's first 30 such cars were delivered from Budd in 1950-51.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 05, 2016 7:40 PM

What C&NW did originate was the use of HEP and Push-Pull operation with cab cars.  C&NW's original bilevels also operated behind steam locomotives (and GP7s and H-16-66s). HEP came with the 1958 P-S order. C&NW converted some E8s to HEP, and swiped a bunch of F7s out of freight service, also installing HEP generators.  MILW and RI got cab cars with their first bilevel orders.

CB&Q didn't get cab cars until 1965, and continued to use power cars until the E8/E9 fleet was rebuilt in the 1970s.

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Saturday, March 05, 2016 7:54 PM

Thanks guys

Why did their GP7's and GP9's have steam generators for on the Burlington then? All of them seemed to be so equipped on a roster I found after posting this topic. They also had 75 SD7's and SD9's with steam generators.

Was it for branch line power and passenger extras, since the E unit fleet was busy on intercity and commuter runs (And I believe their small group of steam generator equipped F3's were assigned to the California Zephyr)?

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, March 05, 2016 8:01 PM

The NorthWestern did some great things back then.  There is even a pic of a scoot coming into Wheaton with an SD9 pulling four of the old 60' cars in 1956. 

Click to view full size image

 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, March 05, 2016 8:12 PM

The interesting comments piqued my interest so I did a little digging...

Q Commuter Run With Steam...

Q Commuter Run With One E, Single Level And Bi-Levels...

E On Not Exactly A Commuter Run...

Not A Commuter Run, But Just A Great Picture Of Aeolus...

Meanwhile, On The Northwestern Side Of Town...This One's For You, Mr. Schlimm...

Northwestern At Rush Hour...

Northwestern Steam Commuter Power...

Image result for chicago northwestern steam commuter trains

 

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, March 05, 2016 9:10 PM

Thx for all.  I like Q, CNW, IC, CGW, CA&E and MILW.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:04 PM

Not a commute engine but my all-time favorite Pacific - CNW Subsidiary Omaha Road E-3 Pacific 602 - 75" drivers, a whopping 51,567 tractive effort and factor of adhesion of 4.07...

Milwaukee Road Baltic 4-6-4 on what sure looks like a commuter consist...

CGW Ten Wheeler - may have been used in commuter service...

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 07, 2016 11:07 AM

In addition to E-7's used in the commuter and long-distance pool, and the Pacifics, GP-7s did occasaionlly pull commuter trains in the summer of 1952.  I rode one with a two-car consist of gallery cars.  I was on my way from New York to EMD at La Grange, arriving on the Trailblazer, and using the first outbound Aurora local from the same side of Union Station.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM

In one of the postings above, the single level car behind the E-Unit is a power car.  Note the hump on the roof.

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Posted by Victrola1 on Monday, March 07, 2016 1:27 PM

Electrification of the Chicago Terminal Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad

 

 

Published 1912
SHOW MORE
 



 

Thesis (B.S.)--Armour Institute of Technology, 1912

B.S. in Electrical Engineering, 1912
 
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Posted by pajrr on Monday, March 14, 2016 1:42 PM

Actually, the Long Island Railroad experimented with Bi-Level Gallery cars in the 1930's. The prototype is at the Railroad Museum of Long Island in Riverhead, NY. 

http://www.rmli.org/RMLI/Riverhead_Site.html

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, March 14, 2016 1:54 PM

The first LIRR bi-level cars weren't gallery cars.  The arrangement was more like a coach version of a duplex roomette sleeping car.  Note that there is just one aisle level and that you step up or down to your seat.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by schlimm on Monday, March 14, 2016 3:02 PM

kgbw49
Not a commute engine but my all-time favorite Pacific - CNW Subsidiary Omaha Road E-3 Pacific 602 - 75" drivers, a whopping 51,567 tractive effort and factor of adhesion of 4.07...

Thanks!!   Always a pleasure to see one of those E-3s.   I always wished they operated on the Galena Division.

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Posted by AMTRAKKER on Monday, March 14, 2016 6:48 PM

thanks for the pics. the northwestern with bilevels in the consist is really cool. 

does anyone know if there were any instances of steam pulling an all bilevel consist? anyone have pics? 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Monday, March 14, 2016 11:11 PM

Here are a few more that I was able to dig up, but steam on bilevels is very elusive.

CNW Atlantic on commuter run...

Pacific...

CNW PM Rush Hour...

Blurry color image with two bilevels...

Another CNW rush hour departure...

Another Pacific-powered commuter train at speed...

Not a commuter run, but a nice shot of an E-4 84-inch-drivered Hudson...

Another shot of steam with bilevels - this one not blurry...

CNW commuter from Kenosha...

Not a commuter run, but an E-4 at Speed with the Los Angelos Challenger...


 

 

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, March 19, 2016 4:40 PM

Back when CB&Q got the bilevels and the E's, they did not have cab cars and they did not operate in a push-pull mode. They trains had to back out of Union Station after arrival, the e had to be y'd or turned and back back in to Union Station. At the old Aurora station, there was a turntable where the locomotives were turned. Downers Grove had a turntable for turning the steamers when it was the end of the line for most commuter trains. Push pull was a great efficiency for the operation. 

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Saturday, March 19, 2016 4:46 PM

rcdrye
CB&Q's bilevel cars were originally steam-heated, and power cars rebuilt from older commuter coaches or mainline cars took care of lighting on longer consists, with small tap generators working for two car trains. 

They were rebuilt from baggage cars and had a generator capable of handling the airconditioner load of the bilevels after they arrived. Later, the bilevels were converted to electric heat and the generators handled that as long as the E's still had steam generators. After Amtrak, the Q replaced the steam generators with HEP generators and retired the power cars. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 20, 2016 4:32 AM

Occasionally, they would not back the train out to the yard, especially mid-day weekday trains.  The incoming locomotive would be uncoupled, and the outgoing locomotive attached to the far end.   This meant that in the power-car days, one could see the power car behind the locomotive on some trains and at the rear of the train on others.  

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Sunday, March 20, 2016 11:47 AM

daveklepper
This meant that in the power-car days, one could see the power car behind the locomotive on some trains and at the rear of the train on others.

Dave, It was my understanding that the consist was not turned, just the locomotive and that the power car was always on the West. And yes that means you are correct, Westbound, the power car was behind the locomotive and Eastbound, it was at the back of the train. Now, with push-pull, the entire consist can stay together and the only thing changing is the Engineer who has to move to be at the front of the train. I see sometimes when the inbound is late, they can discharge, load and go in five minutes. 

They normally allow about 22 minutes at rush hour and they transfer the HEP to shore power due to polution issues for that time but if they are on a quick flip (late inbound), they will skip that. 

Now for others to answer: I thought Caltrans (SP) bilevels originally had waukesau enginator airconditioners which I believe were converted to HEP airconditioners. Did the C&NW bilevels originally have the selfpowered airconditioning?

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, March 20, 2016 12:52 PM

C&NW's 16 bilevels from 1955 (St Louis) were probably equipped with Waukesha AC as well, since C&NW used it on lots of its other equipment. Train lighting used the same generators as the older commuter cars, whether on steam locomotives or diesels. The 1958 and later cars from Pullman-Standard were all equipped with HEP from the builder, and the St Louis cars were quickly converted.

After earlier stating that CB&Q did not use E5's in commuter service, I recently saw a picture of one leading bilevels and a power car.

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Posted by timz on Sunday, March 20, 2016 3:17 PM

Electroliner 1935
I thought Caltrans (SP) bilevels originally had waukesau enginator airconditioners which I believe were converted to HEP airconditioners.

SP's cars might have gotten steam from the engine, but never HEP. While they were on SP, anyway.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, March 20, 2016 7:49 PM

To borrow a phrase from the late, great David P. Morgan, "California style"...

 

And finally a couple of steam-powered commute trains with single level commute cars...

GS-4 Northern...

Early Pacific...

Image result for southern pacific steam powered commuter trains

Mountain...

P-8 Pacific...

Mountain...

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 21, 2016 6:57 AM

The SD9 between the two TrainMasters is either 4450 or 4451, which were rebuilt as reserve passenger units in 1973 or 1974, retaining their as-built boilers.  SP had used SD7s and SD9s (and an occasional FP7) in the commute pool in the 1950s and 1960s, but these two were the only ones permanently assigned.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, March 21, 2016 8:06 AM

Quick turnarounds are the norm during rush hour with push-pulls.  Metra Southwest Service train 834 is scheduled to arrive at Chicago Union Station at 5:04PM and the same equipment departs as train 827 at 5:18PM.  The inbound run is occasionally up to about 5-6 minutes late but a late departure on the outbound run is rare.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by ejmhhm on Thursday, March 16, 2017 10:18 AM

Hi,

I moved  to a suburban house facing the CB&Q race track to Aurora  from Chicago. When I moveded there I remember well that occasionally CB&Q used steam to pull those Budd High level commutor coaches along with a steam /generator/baggage car and one or two green heavy duty cars on the end. I'm Looking for a photo from those times. I hope You can assist

schlimm

Contrary to some posts on another thread, the C&NW did not originate bilevel gallery cars in 1955 with cars 1-16 from St. Louis Car.  The CB&Q's first 30 such cars were delivered from Budd in 1950-51.

 

RE:
schlimm

Contrary to some posts on another thread, the C&NW did not originate bilevel gallery cars in 1955 with cars 1-16 from St. Louis Car.  The CB&Q's first 30 such cars were delivered from Budd in 1950-51.

 

 

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