Internally, the only Transmontana I saw in Berlin was very good, with ABB electronics etc. The exterior finish was too matte for my tastes.
The Dragon has been only a 3 kV DC-only machine, while the Transmontana is an AC locomotive (initially 25 kV, and the latest edition shown in Berlin can also run on central Europe 16 2/3 kV, too), so they are ahead in AC territory.
But the Dragon uses also ABB electronics, so they may be able to become an AC machine as well (ABB is popular provider of power electronics to small locomotive/multiple units manufacturers)
This PDF shows the concept of a EURO 4000 with dual capability:
http://www.vossloh-espana.com/media/downloads/pdfs/flyer/EURO_DUAL-_EN_July_2012.pdf
N.F.
Interesting...I hope that Softronic fixes any quality problems as Romania has not had a reputation for quality (Class 56, anyone?)
Newag seems to me an equally long shot, as only Polish operators have picked up their locomotives thus far. I think it will be Bombardier vs Siemens.
News on the AFRO 4000 came out today (showing just how current this thread is!) The big question is who dropped the ball in the tender. A clearance diagram should be agreed upon before any design work is completed! Unfortunately, the problem areas seem to all be suburban areas and so they can't visit major cities. Last I heard the lawsuit to force Vossloh to take them back is still in the courts, and deliveries have essentially siezed.
AFAIK, only two EuroLight/EuroDual demonstrators have been built.
Personally, I liked the recent update of the Transmontana, been inside their latest copy in previous Innotrans, and she looked good enough (but their finish wasn't impressive, compared even to the Polish Newag 'Dragon' - another possible condender?)
Vossloh Espana (now Stadler) has received limited authorisation for running the AFRO 4000 in South Africa recently (my guess is that the network hasn't been properly maintained, with catenary hanging too low etc, causing clearance problems). The current EuroDual 4-axle platform is running now in Italy (I think), and most copies run in UK for DRS. In previous Innotrans, they promised a 6-axle EuroDual, which might be similar to the old Euro 4000, but with a C175 diesel inside, as the EMD 710G is now history due to emissions regulations.
Wow, lots of information to comment on-thanks!
Alstom ran into the problem of insufficient market share in Europe. SNCF was their only major customer on major orders with a highly customized product. Siemens and Bombardier also started with customized products based of the DB 101 and OBB Taurus, but they seemed more willing and able to cater to the needs of operators that needed other things than Alstom. They also introduced their big new platform later than the other two, and the Prima II recieved no orders except from ONCF. Thus, they had to look elsewhere in the world.
On TransMontana- I created a thread in June 2015 about it that I can bump if you want to write about it. If not, that is fine.
I had forgotten that Stadler had bought the transportation devision of Vossloh (which was apparently completed today, Jan 5th).
Regarding new Stadler production, it would be in the new EuroLight carbody, as the Euro 710-powered series is not emissions compliant anymore. (OBB did have a long history of buying Henschel-built EMD powered locomotives, but I think they are all retired). No EuroDual locomotives were built in the old carbody for European service (some were to be built for South Africa's Prasa, but litigation has stalled delivery of even the standard units), but some Direct Rail Services have ordered some in the UK carbody.
I have always thought that the EuroDual was a response to CAF's Bitrac series that only recieved one order.
Love the Re 10/10. The Re 620 and Re 420 have class!
Thanks!
Let's include one candidate that is not a probable choise, but still well worth mentioning: Stadler Rail EuroDual Co'Co' locomotive. This has pantograph and electrical gear in addition to huge diesel engine of varying sizes. And this locomotive is trustworthy. Pictures are of pure diesel units as the EuroDual was very hard to catch. Just picture pantograph at the other end of the roof and that is EuroDual. Pictures from Sweden,
Norway and
Israel.
Some more pictures to add material to this tender of ÖBB.
10 axles can also be found in use in Switzerland: Bo'Bo'+Bo'Bo'Bo' (Re421+Re620 of SBB)
And despite sanctions over Russia, Alstom has just bought into more of one of their core operations: Transmasholding. Alstom (of France) bought another 8% becoming the second biggest owner with 33% of shares. This might give Alstom some more time in train building as the situtation in crumbling for them in Western Europe (train shopping is less and less political but based on customer value), where they are loosing their core markets to customer oriented guys like Bombardier, Stadler and Siemens. I also observed with interest how GE bought the Alstom power plant section last summer and left transportation segment in French hands. Obviously they also thought this is one of the loosing companies for the future. So for Alstom transportation the deal with Russians comes as a gift from heaven.
Below Alstom+Transmasholding Russian manufactured Bo'Bo'Bo' class EP20 of RZD. Of course anything manufactured in Russia is out of question since 2014 for Western Europe.
Many of my thoughts are according to similar lines. Yes, the DB Schenker (another State run Goliath) is expanding, but observing it from train operarators view point he said they always wish to make local cooperation, transfering work to local guys. Which might run both locally and long distance. But this is just local Nordic view.
About the transmontana...how should I put it: the situation is "colorful" and extremely manysided. And definitely worth writing another thread! I read a lot about it in Swedish recently, and learned a lot of thing which have not been discussed openly earlier. For this tender I don't think Transmontana will qualify technically, despite qualified people working there.
NorthWest McKey- Thanks for the pictures. It does seem that European locomotive orders are becoming increasingly freight-only with little passenger provisions as EMUs (unfortunatley) take over most of the passenger services. The 1144s were upgraded from 1044s less than a decade ago, IIRC, and so have a long career yet. I am wondering if this is a massive expansion to attempt to compete with the DB expansion over Europe, hence the requirement for operating ability around Europe. (Even in places like some of the former Yugoslavian nations where I doubt they will ever see service). I think that OBB might have a state-owned corporation set up for this, similar to DB Schenker. I can't conclusively say that, but I have seen locomotives lettered for Rail Cargo Austria, etc. Thank you also for the images, particularly the RTC EU43, which is quite dramatic. I see this as a continuation of the battle between legacy national operators and the new private ones over the unit train contracts the private operators have been succesful in picking up. To this American observer, the private operator situation in Europe always seems rather fluid, with operators primarily leasing locomotives from ELL, MRCE, RailPool and other lessors rather than purchasing other locomotives that could become a drag on finances if traffic drops. I usually follow Railcolor to try to keep somewhat up to date. nfotis- B-B+B-B was apparently considered an option, and Railcolor drew up some artist impressions at http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1405330&id=8137&action=dview Also listed are specifications, which are a duplicate of those posted above. P.S.- McKey, have you heard anything about the Softronic TransMontana testing in Sweden? Things have gone quiet there. Any information is greatly appreciated.
McKey- Thanks for the pictures. It does seem that European locomotive orders are becoming increasingly freight-only with little passenger provisions as EMUs (unfortunatley) take over most of the passenger services. The 1144s were upgraded from 1044s less than a decade ago, IIRC, and so have a long career yet.
I am wondering if this is a massive expansion to attempt to compete with the DB expansion over Europe, hence the requirement for operating ability around Europe. (Even in places like some of the former Yugoslavian nations where I doubt they will ever see service). I think that OBB might have a state-owned corporation set up for this, similar to DB Schenker. I can't conclusively say that, but I have seen locomotives lettered for Rail Cargo Austria, etc.
Thank you also for the images, particularly the RTC EU43, which is quite dramatic. I see this as a continuation of the battle between legacy national operators and the new private ones over the unit train contracts the private operators have been succesful in picking up. To this American observer, the private operator situation in Europe always seems rather fluid, with operators primarily leasing locomotives from ELL, MRCE, RailPool and other lessors rather than purchasing other locomotives that could become a drag on finances if traffic drops. I usually follow Railcolor to try to keep somewhat up to date.
nfotis- B-B+B-B was apparently considered an option, and Railcolor drew up some artist impressions at
http://www.railcolor.net/index.php?nav=1405330&id=8137&action=dview
Also listed are specifications, which are a duplicate of those posted above.
P.S.- McKey, have you heard anything about the Softronic TransMontana testing in Sweden? Things have gone quiet there. Any information is greatly appreciated.
I suppose nothing, I remember hearing of this too, though it was not on the material I saw. Tender just asks for 4 or 6 axle single units. If they choose differently, the other (loosing) bidders will all take the issue to court, resulting in loss of time and money, and causing retendering.
What I now write is just subjective and theoretical: As ÖBB is a Western company, I think they are technically advanced enough to go to modular design. Basically in U.S. or Western Europe, if you have two or more locomotives coupled together and one fails, you uncouple the failed one for service. Visibility is still there and you can continue the operation.
In Russian model, the _whole_ unit goes to service, which I interpret as a huge waste. And as to exemplify this, RzD now even has a Yermak locos, which are _four_ units acting as one locomotive...I believe this is huge waste of resources. Something ÖBB would not wish to go into. However, I might be surprised if this happens...
nfotis What precludes the use of two-section locomotives (Bo-Bo+Bo-Bo), like the Russians? I vaguely remember this being an additional option in that tender. N.F.
What precludes the use of two-section locomotives (Bo-Bo+Bo-Bo), like the Russians?
I vaguely remember this being an additional option in that tender.
To the tender details in short (sorry, ÖBB seems to have removed the tender from the official site so it is not open for verifications and enquiries any more). This is second hand information, so it is not the actual tender material. Lot 1: "Standard locomotive": 50+25+25 (100) AC electrics with 350-500 kW diesel engine by 2017. 300 kN or more. 4 axles. Top speed just 120 km/h. Operable in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Croatia, Slovakia, Serbian and part of Czech republic. Possibly in Poland, Italy (for part of the batch this is obligatory), Bosnia, Macedonia, Greece, Belgium, Netherland, Slovenia. Lot 2: Super Cargo West Locomotive: 50 units of AC electric with 1800 kW diesel by 2020. 450 kN or more! 4-6 axles. Top speed 120 km/h. Operable in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Croatia, Serbia and Czech Republic. Other countries desirable. Lot 3: Super Cargo East Locomotive: 50 units of AC electric with 450 kw diesel by 2017: 450 kN or more with 4-6 axles. Top speed 120 km/h. Operable in parts of Austria, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. Part of the list of other countries. Significant market and technological changes are: -> ÖBB apppears to be widening its operations area significantly, making it even stronger in Austria and nearby markets. It will also open up new long haul markets. -> Move to use electrics equipped with diesel aggregate. Earlier pure electrics or diesel locomotives were used, now these will be combined. -> Move to use 6 axle locomotives large scale for the first time in 20 years in Europe! These might be either Co'Co' or Bo'Bo'Bo' locomotives. This will also meand that finally we are about to see a little longer trains than the tiny little freights typical to many EU countries. 450 kilonewtons is well in place for climbing hills and mountain sides too.-> Turkey - West Europe direct freight trains appear to be present here for the first time. So this oder might help to create more developed freight trains, something normally seen in U.S. As you read the specifications carefully, it appears this tender looks prefabricated for Bombardier and Siemens, both have ready or will have ready models for this purpose by 2017. Also Newag, Softronic and Stadler Rail Spain might take part. As we know, Siemens has long and warm relations with Siemens, so it would be a surprise if they did not win. Let us look at pictures of earlier 6 axle locomotives: Class EG, originally built for DSB of Denmark for steep tunnel slopes. This appears top be "a very early Eurosprinter", just 6 axles instead of the usual 4. Co'Co'
3) Or the solution might be Bo'Bo'Bo' design like the SBB Re620 / Re 6/6.
To the next part of the story: the guys who might be hurt by big public company flexing its muscle are true private operators running through freight in Austria. And of course all startup operators in ex. East Europe - current EU Eastern States. I can see the following companies raising their eyebrows on the tender. Locomotion, Cargoserv and RTC for three. I might be missing a sizable list, but pictures are not available for publishing here. Some pictures of these operator's locomotives:
Austrian state railways ÖBB set out a tender in October asking for 200 new freight locomotives, a great number of which are hybrid locomotives. Don't laught...this will be the largest freight locomotive order in Europe for 2016 ;) While the tender itself asks for what is inevitable change in the form of electric + diesel hybrid models, much questioning on German language train forums have been on the common sense of doing this. ÖBB today has a pretty sizable fleet of locomotives, many vacant and end of life cycle is looming as far as in another 20 years away! These locomotives of class 1144 according to people on forum would be good for freight haulage. More and more of these are said to be stockpiling as class 4020 Bombardier Talents and class 4746 Desiro ML:s take over the traffic of the current 1144 push-pull rakes. I myself am questioning of the rational use of public money as ÖBB is state funded, and how this is in accordance with the European Union subsidy policies. For starters: Talent class 4020, seen here vinyled with adds
Desiro ML
and class 1144 with push-pull set of ÖBB.
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