An update to my last post. (It what I get for trying to remember what book says what from my collection.) The UCOR 1950 book required turning markers only outside in dark territory. Reflectorized markers became authorized in the 1960s (from a rules change pamphlet) and, at night only, would need to be removed or replaced with a white light. The 1968 book doesn't say anything about turning markers.
The 1967 Consolidated Code, which governed the CNW, MILW and what became BN (among others) required the reflectorized markers to be turned, outside ABS territory, to display green to the rear.
In both codes, a train encountering and passing a train in the siding in dark territory displaying red to the rear were to be prepared to stop at the far end of the siding. Once they could determine that the far switch was lined for their movement, they could continue on.
Jeff
I kind of forgot about this thread. The RI and CNW (and maybe most US railroads) also started using metal flags, one side red the other green, as markers. I'm not sure how they "turned" that type of marker. It's not possible to show green both ways, so maybe they removed them when clear of the main. There's reference to turning markers in the 1979 Trains article (reprinted in Trains of the 1970s) about CNW's Falcon train.
Turning markers can be era and/or territory specific. I know on the RI (and other roads using the UCOR book) that in the 1950 book you didn't have to turn them in CTC territory. Only in ABS or dark. In the 1968 it had changed to only dark territory. Today, under GCOR, you don't turn or extinguish the marker at all when clear of the main.
Go to older rule books and you'll find diagrams to turn one marker (the one next to an adjacent main track) to display green (or yellow as some roads used) all around when running against the current of traffic. The one on the field side is left normal, red to the rear.
As I recall, from my 1943 or so Southern Rulebook (which I could not find when I moved 2 1/2 years ago), the markers were to be turned when a train had taken a siding. I do not recall if anything was said about the switches' being lined for the main, but it does follow that when a train is waiting in a siding that the switches would be so lined.
Johnny
BaltACD CMStPnP jeffhergert The Green and White lights are properly called classification signals or "class lights." Markers denote the end of the train, that the train is complete. All trains carried markers, even leading sections of a schedule. If you were on train Extra 1234 West and had train orders specifing a meet with first 56 engine 4321 at B and Second 56 Engine 4322 at C, you would need to know that all of first 56 had arrived at B before leaving. The marker at the rear of the train does this. If First 56 went by and didn't have a marker, Extra 1234 West isn't going anywhere until they can ascertain that first 56 has fully arrived. Jeff OK quick question on this. Typically on a Milwaukee Road Caboose they had metal flags sometimes reflective sometimes not. Anyways one side of the flag was red and the other was green. What would they use a green flag for on a caboose? Is it the same deal with passenger tail cars? For a definative answer, one would have to have a MILW rule book from the period, as I am certain the answer is contained in the rules. CMStPnP jeffhergert The Green and White lights are properly called classification signals or "class lights." Markers denote the end of the train, that the train is complete. All trains carried markers, even leading sections of a schedule. If you were on train Extra 1234 West and had train orders specifing a meet with first 56 engine 4321 at B and Second 56 Engine 4322 at C, you would need to know that all of first 56 had arrived at B before leaving. The marker at the rear of the train does this. If First 56 went by and didn't have a marker, Extra 1234 West isn't going anywhere until they can ascertain that first 56 has fully arrived. Jeff OK quick question on this. Typically on a Milwaukee Road Caboose they had metal flags sometimes reflective sometimes not. Anyways one side of the flag was red and the other was green. What would they use a green flag for on a caboose? Is it the same deal with passenger tail cars? For a definative answer, one would have to have a MILW rule book from the period, as I am certain the answer is contained in the rules.
CMStPnP jeffhergert The Green and White lights are properly called classification signals or "class lights." Markers denote the end of the train, that the train is complete. All trains carried markers, even leading sections of a schedule. If you were on train Extra 1234 West and had train orders specifing a meet with first 56 engine 4321 at B and Second 56 Engine 4322 at C, you would need to know that all of first 56 had arrived at B before leaving. The marker at the rear of the train does this. If First 56 went by and didn't have a marker, Extra 1234 West isn't going anywhere until they can ascertain that first 56 has fully arrived. Jeff OK quick question on this. Typically on a Milwaukee Road Caboose they had metal flags sometimes reflective sometimes not. Anyways one side of the flag was red and the other was green. What would they use a green flag for on a caboose? Is it the same deal with passenger tail cars?
jeffhergert The Green and White lights are properly called classification signals or "class lights." Markers denote the end of the train, that the train is complete. All trains carried markers, even leading sections of a schedule. If you were on train Extra 1234 West and had train orders specifing a meet with first 56 engine 4321 at B and Second 56 Engine 4322 at C, you would need to know that all of first 56 had arrived at B before leaving. The marker at the rear of the train does this. If First 56 went by and didn't have a marker, Extra 1234 West isn't going anywhere until they can ascertain that first 56 has fully arrived. Jeff
The Green and White lights are properly called classification signals or "class lights." Markers denote the end of the train, that the train is complete.
All trains carried markers, even leading sections of a schedule. If you were on train Extra 1234 West and had train orders specifing a meet with first 56 engine 4321 at B and Second 56 Engine 4322 at C, you would need to know that all of first 56 had arrived at B before leaving. The marker at the rear of the train does this. If First 56 went by and didn't have a marker, Extra 1234 West isn't going anywhere until they can ascertain that first 56 has fully arrived.
OK quick question on this. Typically on a Milwaukee Road Caboose they had metal flags sometimes reflective sometimes not. Anyways one side of the flag was red and the other was green. What would they use a green flag for on a caboose? Is it the same deal with passenger tail cars?
For a definative answer, one would have to have a MILW rule book from the period, as I am certain the answer is contained in the rules.
The caboose would display green markers once the entire train had cleared the main track to allow another train to overtake it (in Canada at least). I believe the reason was to let the overtaking train know they were clear so it wouldn't have to slow down to stop and line a switch. All the marker lamps I've ever seen had one red lens and 3 green, and the brackets on the caboose were angled so if the lamps were switched from side to side they would display green to the rear instead of red (my Museum's equipment is like this). Later cabooses and passenger cars (CN, CP and VIA) had the marker lights built in, both green and red. I've seen only seen the metal flags in use in the U.S., not Canada but I suspect they were used the same way as marker lamps and followed the same rules.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I've seen a similar set-up on the marker lights on gallery coach cabs that were built for MILW prior to Metra. They have a red light showing to the rear and green lights showing to the side and to the front.
Deggesty Thanks, Jeff, for the clarification of markers and classification lights. I had always had the understanding that the last car on a train carried markers--and that an engine running light carried markers also--thus, when such an engine is met, the crews of an opposing train do not worry if there are cars somewhere behind it. A question--if the engine crew has had to cut an run for water; would markers be placed on the tender, and the front end of the cars that were left standing be marked in some way?
Thanks, Jeff, for the clarification of markers and classification lights.
I had always had the understanding that the last car on a train carried markers--and that an engine running light carried markers also--thus, when such an engine is met, the crews of an opposing train do not worry if there are cars somewhere behind it. A question--if the engine crew has had to cut an run for water; would markers be placed on the tender, and the front end of the cars that were left standing be marked in some way?
I would say no. If the water tank was at a siding, a train waiting for the arrival of the train that had to cut and run, seeing markers might think it had arrived. If just the engine sans markers arrived, it would know the entire train hadn't arrived.
One rule book I have requires putting out two torpedoes 20 car lengths from standing cars under conditions making it difficult for a returning engine to find the cars they left. (Others may also have a similar requirement. I only have the UCOR 1968 with me as I write this.)
Under most if not all rulebooks markers were green to show another section following, last section has no markers on the engine but red markers on th rear end (sections before the last carried no markers, or in some cases yellow markers). The center light package on the SDP40F and early F40 was similar to the ones SP used in the 1970s. The red light lit for an emergency brake application. The "Markers" by the number boards were not usually lit at all, but are lit red today on the ex-F40 "Cabbage" cars when they are trailing a train. P40s and P42s have taillights built into the nose.
[quote user="alloboard"]
Thanks allot for your reply it was very helpful. This makes sense. I always knew that the other lights were for reverse. I searched tyhe F40PH going reverse at nighgt on Google but never saw the center red light lit, thats why I asked what the center light was for. I have an HO scale Kato F40PH and the red center light is filled in and colored red making it look real but does not work. I will activate it by drilling a hole in it glueing a gasket put an MV red lens and an LED and program it with TCS KAT26 decoder. I have a Bachmann F40PH but theres a hole for it already but came in with poor bluish while LED lighting that I removed long ago and I currently doing the same process as above for the Kato.
Thanks allot for your reply it was very helpful. This makes sense. I always knew that the other lights were for reverse. I searched tyhe F40PH going reverse at nighgt on Google but never saw the center red light lit, thats why I asked what the center light was for. I have an HO scale Kato F40PH and the red center light is filled in and colored red making it look real but does not work. I will activate it by drilling a hole in it glueing a gasket put an MV red lens and an LED and program it with TCS KAT26 decoder.
I asked the same question way back when I was in junior high school and these units were new.
I could be wrong on this but I believe the center red light is supposed to strobe (flash) if the locomotive goes into emergency communicating to opposing trains that a train could be stopped in their path with potentially larger repercussions......kind of like a red road flare for an automobile.
The predecessor unit to this F40PH the SDP40F had the same feature but also had a white oscillating light paired with it above the windshield along with the headlight in the nose.
The red lights on either side are only if the unit operates in reverse. They have evolved and used to be marker lights. White in color and the train was an "extra", forget what green meant (last section?) but the other color was red which meant the unit was running in reverse......older Canadian units still have the three colors up there. On the photo you submitted seems like a red lens forces only one color and one use.
SDP40F:
Has anyone ever seen the middle red "tail" light of the F40PH locomotive ever lit? I have not. Here's a link to a picture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Amtrak_406_F40PH_Phase_III_Paint_Scheme_(6121785963).jpg
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