Just got done reading the magazine on the 611 & mentioned diesel merely
I don't have an exact date, but I think it was late 1959 or early 1960. Others will have more information.
The era of Norfolk & Western burning what it hauled ended in the early morning of May 7th, 1960.
Quite true, but N&W didn't become all-diesel until sometime in 1962 when the ex-Virginian electrification was shut down.
Please define "all diesel" since they kept 611 for a while and had it running more than once. (Same goes for UP since 844 was never really off the books, although it had to play as 8444 for a couple decades...)
Forgot about the electrification.
LensCapOn Please define "all diesel" since they kept 611 for a while and had it running more than once. (Same goes for UP since 844 was never really off the books, although it had to play as 8444 for a couple decades...)
No, Norfolk & Western didn't run any steam excursions after the end of commercial steam service.
The 611 pulled the last steam excursion on the line on October 24th 1959, over half a year before freight service ended. That's the trip, I believe, that was famous for going past the century mark, although it's debated over these days [Edit: Looks like that was a Washington DC trip on October 18th].
Not too long after that trip, after a period in storage where she was threatened with scrapping, she went to Roanoke. It was the Southern Railway that resurrected steam after famously dieselizing early and with little sign of sentiment at the time, whose program remained active into the mid 1990's under the merged Norfolk Southern umbrella.
Not another UP 844 style deal.
Do the Lamberts Point electric transfer cars count? Not sure how long they lasted, but I've seen pictures from around this time period of them in action. So they quite possibly outlasted the former Virginian mainline electrification.
The Virginian also used similar cars at the Sewell's Point coal piers, a facility which N&W shuttered immediately in favor of Lambert's Point.
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If we're including exports, the Canadian Locomotive Company in Kingston was the last commercial steam builder in North America.
16-567D3A ndbprr Didn't N&W purchase the last steam engine from a manufacturer? I believe it was an 0-8-0 switcher. N&W's Roanoke shops built the last new Steam engine for a US Railroad, in December 1953, S-1a 0-8-0 #244. ALCO's last Steam Locomotive was P&LE 2-8-4 #9401 in June 1948. LIMA's last Steam Locomotive was Nickel Plate 2-8-4 #779 in May 1949. BALDWIN'S last Steam Locomotive Built for a US Railroad was C&O H6 2-6-6-2 #1309 Delivered September 1949. 50 2-8-2s for export to India in 1954 were the last Baldwin steam locomotive's built.
ndbprr Didn't N&W purchase the last steam engine from a manufacturer? I believe it was an 0-8-0 switcher.
N&W's Roanoke shops built the last new Steam engine for a US Railroad, in December 1953, S-1a 0-8-0 #244. ALCO's last Steam Locomotive was P&LE 2-8-4 #9401 in June 1948. LIMA's last Steam Locomotive was Nickel Plate 2-8-4 #779 in May 1949. BALDWIN'S last Steam Locomotive Built for a US Railroad was C&O H6 2-6-6-2 #1309 Delivered September 1949. 50 2-8-2s for export to India in 1954 were the last Baldwin steam locomotive's built.
I might need to search my TRAINS back issues on that.
ndbprrDidn't N&W purchase the last steam engine from a manufacturer? I believe it was an 0-8-0 switcher.
I can't find my references right now, but as I recall, N&W bought some 0-8-0 switchers from C&O, then built more based on that design. I don't remember who built them for C&O.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Those 30 2nd hand purchases were built by Baldwin in 1948.
To echo what 16-567D3A said, keep in mind outfits like Crown Products were building steam locomotives for a number of years for amusement parks and tourist attractions, and there's David Kloke building new steam locomotive today. But we have to say that the steam era ended when both N&W and GTW stopped running steam in 1960. The narrow gauge lines and small 'roads that kept steam in service, while interesting, really don't figure into the big picture. They're anomalys, not the rule.
In the same vein, when I was in the gun business people would ask me when the era of muzzle-loaders ended. My answer was in a way, it never did. Even after breech-loaders were invented muzzle-loading guns were still produced well into the 20th Century in places like Belgium for export to Third-World countries where the populace were limited to primitive firearm purchases. But again, this is the exception that doesn't prove the rule.
Last mainline steam locomotive built in the USA was Y6b #2200, in Roanoke, in 1952, according to a number of sources. I believe some yard switchers were erected here and there after that date.
Commercial steam production (Or producing your own motive power in-house like the N&W did) isn't really the same thing as we've seen since then on the Mt. Washington Cog Railway and such.
Steam locomotives have been produced since then, but they've been speciality items from companies that aren't in the business of producing and marketing steam locomotives. And they haven't been built for common carriers or industrial uses, but as tourists power.
selectorLast mainline steam locomotive built in the USA was Y6b #2200, in Roanoke, in 1952, according to a number of sources. I believe some yard switchers were erected here and there after that date.
Nope, as already posted in this thread, BLH built export steam into the mid 1950's. For instance, they built 50 2-8-2's for India in 1954, perhaps marking the end.
And Y6b #2200 isn't typically considered the last. While the final mainline locomotive built for an American railroad, the end is generally viewed as being marked by N&W #244, an 0-8-0 switcher outshopped by Roanoke in December 1953.
While power intended mainly for yards, that's typically viewed as the last steam locomotive built here for a US railroad.
This thread brings to mind something I've wondered about: Am I correct that by the time of the 1959 Merger with Norfolk & Western, the Virginian Railway had completely ended Steam operations?
Did N&W operate any of it's own Steam power on the former Virginian lines?
It's an interesting "what if" scenario: imagine Virginian Blue Ridge 2-6-6-6s (Alleghenies) pulling long strings of hoppers with Y and A helpers and pushers..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
End of steam on Virginian was mid-1957, with any remaining dead locomotives gone by 1960.
Some were still on the property past merger day. I've seen pictures from late 1959 of several Virginian locomotives like #906, a completely rebuilt Allegheny that was never ran.
Would've been nice to see them save that one before the merger was official, since N&W's president at the time would've never been bothered and just sealed her fate. I suspect they had thoughts of such a thing, and several well kept and freshly painted engines were displayed during the 1959 NRHS convention that were being kept indoors.
And what about Pacific #212? She led #3 on the Virginian's last day of passenger service and was put on display in Roanoke, but eventually disappeared sometime after merger day. Presumably, N&W didn't share their enthusiasm and had the exhibit scrapped.
Wizlish End of steam on Virginian was mid-1957, with any remaining dead locomotives gone by 1960.
Thanks.
But to restate the second part of my question:
Does anyone know if N&W operated any of their own steam power on former Virginian lines after the merger?
I know that's a pretty obscure topic but I would like to know..
carnej1Does anyone know if N&W operated any of their own steam power on former Virginian lines after the merger? I know that's a pretty obscure topic but I would like to know..
I am waiting for someone like BigJim (or Dave Stephenson) who would know a definitive answer.
But I find it almost incredibly unlikely. By the date of the merger, Virginian was very effectively dieselized, and electric operations continued without replacement (contrary to the N&W experience at elkhorn Tunnel, where the older electrification was supplanted by steam). There would have been little or none of the specialized infrastructure like lubritoria that made systematic steam operations so efficient onN&W proper, whereas it could be expected that Virginian had its customary efficiency in place for FM diesel service, at least.
Although it might be possible that N&W ran some post-merger clearance tests with steam, it was my understanding that by 1959 any use or extension of steam was officially 'dead' as a matter of policy - so what would be the point?
Did the Virginian even have the infrastructure left to support steam? I suspect the answer is yes, but active steam had been dead for a while and besides some remnants, was off the property by merger day.
It wouldn't of been terribly unusual for that answer to be no. It often decided, such as on the Pennsy, which divisions got steam during the few years where significant numbers of steam were kept as reserve power.
A previously dieselized division of that road (The Conemaugh Division) was basically converted back to steam in one famous instance and the diesels reassigned during a severe power shortage.
That happened precisely because the necessary servicing facilities were still present on that route after a year or more of no steam. And even then, they had to erect a new 35,000 gallon water tank in one location and run canteen cars on another route due to a demolished water facilitiy. Often, a practical return to steam was impossible in short order after dieselization.
Trains even coined a new term that year, "de-dieselization".
It seems the N&W-VGN merger was eff 1 Dec 1959-- so no N&W locomotives of any kind on VGN until then?
Hard to believe on 2 Dec 1959 N&W management would say "Let's send a Y6b over to Mullens and see if they have any use for it."
I don't have a definitive answer to the queston, but I don't recall any discussion at teh N&W archives relating to N&W power operating on the VGN post merger.
DRS (aka feltonhill)
When did Norfolk and Western go all diesel?
Too damn soon!
Grrrrrrr.....
I doubt it. Well-run mergers tend to leave actual operations alone for months as equipment is renumbered and worked into the agreed-upon number system.
Certainly true NorthWest, when we moved to Richmond, VA in 1987 there were still quite a few locomotives operated by CSX that still had their Seaboard Coast Lines, Family Lines, L&N, and Chessie System markings. And on occasion you'd see one with C&O markings, but not so often as the others.
It seemed like CSX wasn't in any great rush to repaint back then.
Firelock76 Certainly true NorthWest, when we moved to Richmond, VA in 1987 there were still quite a few locomotives operated by CSX that still had their Seaboard Coast Lines, Family Lines, L&N, and Chessie System markings. And on occasion you'd see one with C&O markings, but not so often as the others. It seemed like CSX wasn't in any great rush to repaint back then.
Not only weren't they in a hurry to repaint, they weren't in a hurry to merge the operations. CSX was formed Nov. 1, 1980. Outside of a few 'coordintion projects', Chessie & Seaboard operated as separate organizations until approximately 1986 when the decision was made on whose computer system was going to be the one that ran the combined organization. Once that decision was made and the equipment installation and training effort undertaken to train field personnel on on the 'losing' property, the merging of individual departments was undertaken based on the plans that hae been formulated during the 5+ years the organizations operated separately.
Mergers of large organization is not something to be done without a lot of attention to the small details.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSX was smart to take its time in completing the merger. Aside from the UP/SP debacle, there have been any number of airline mergers that were rushed to completion with corresponding operational problems, United+Continental being the most recent example.
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