In the past, whole classes of steam engines were scrapped without even one surviving. Now, we cannot see them again. The reason why this happened, is because people think about trying to preserve what is almost gone, not what is common. Railroads are scrapping some of the older diesel electrics like older GPs or turning them into slugs. They are also overhauling locomotives, drastically changing the look ex: SD40-2 made into SD40-3 with different (ugly in my opinion) cabs. Muesums should try to buy these before they are gone. Historical groups should buy them. New Historical groups should be created now, before it is to late.
I personally would like GP38-2s, SD40-2s, and a few NS high hood units be preserved now. Special paint schemes should also be bought, before the RR repaints them back to the normal paint job ex. One that we lost was the NS Maersk-Sealand paint scheme.
If organizations are created, and they can get 1-10 dollars in donations from each person, then the goal will be easily attainable in several years. There could even be a big foundation that receives all the donations, buys locomotives, and then gives them to small muesums and organizations. They could then trade them between the places every so often. The best part is that these locomotives are still running strong, and with the easy duties of "tourist railroads", they can still be going strong for years to come.
The time to act isn't in the eleventh hour when the few remaining are going to the scrapper, the time is now.
The OP is pretty glib about where the money is going to come from for such projects. There are dozens of preservation projects in a variety of fields that failed because the hoped-for donations never came in. He also forgets that railroads are businesses, and I don't think that any of the Class I's will unload an SD40-2 for scrap value to a museum or preservation group when they can get a better return on upgrading it to Dash-3 standards or cutting it down to a slug.
Reality isn't always pretty, but it's always reality.
Amen, Paul.
Quite frankly, not every artifact produced by man has to be preserved. HMS Victory and USS Constitution are invaluable, because we don't have reels of film, piles of DVDs and innumerable engineering drawings and operating manuals for seventeenth century naval vessels. The same is true of many steam locomotives. On the opposite hand, I can't think of a single class of mass-produced diesel-electric that isn't heavily documented.
Quite frankly, while I enjoy seeing steam in operation, or even dead in tow, seeing a steamer stuffed and mounted leaves me unsatisfied. Diesels leave me equally unimpressed even when operating in revenue service (They went from furniture vans to emergency power generators on wheels instead of skids...) I can't see diverting resources to preservation that can be used to advance future technology.
If a cat named Kyle has a big pile of his own money with which to:
It might happen. If operated as a 'pay as you enter' museum it probably wouldn't even pay its running expenses. As for me, I'm looking forward, not back.
Chuck (occasional science fiction author)
CSSHEGEWISCH The OP is pretty glib about where the money is going to come from for such projects. There are dozens of preservation projects in a variety of fields that failed because the hoped-for donations never came in. He also forgets that railroads are businesses, and I don't think that any of the Class I's will unload an SD40-2 for scrap value to a museum or preservation group when they can get a better return on upgrading it to Dash-3 standards or cutting it down to a slug. Reality isn't always pretty, but it's always reality.
Out of curiosity, does any RR museum in the U.S currently own any freight Dash 2's?
Note that the majority of Dash 2s that the big Class 1s retire are sold on the second-hand locomotive market where they are a valuable commodity, and will be for many years to come..
I am not that worried about the units the O.P mentioned as they are going to be in service in North America for a long time yet, if not on class 1 rosters than with regionals and shortlines..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Yes, the group in Los Angeles received a SD40-2 in return for the Big Boy. I believe that there is another one someplace also. There is a high hood SD45 preserved at the Roanoke Railroad museum.
IRM has C&NW 6847, an SD40-2, that runs.
carnej1 CSSHEGEWISCH The OP is pretty glib about where the money is going to come from for such projects. There are dozens of preservation projects in a variety of fields that failed because the hoped-for donations never came in. He also forgets that railroads are businesses, and I don't think that any of the Class I's will unload an SD40-2 for scrap value to a museum or preservation group when they can get a better return on upgrading it to Dash-3 standards or cutting it down to a slug. Reality isn't always pretty, but it's always reality. Out of curiosity, does any RR museum in the U.S currently own any freight Dash 2's? Note that the majority of Dash 2s that the big Class 1s retire are sold on the second-hand locomotive market where they are a valuable commodity, and will be for many years to come.. I am not that worried about the units the O.P mentioned as they are going to be in service in North America for a long time yet, if not on class 1 rosters than with regionals and shortlines..
However many class 1s have either been rebuilding, or looking into rebuilding. I am sure a class 1 will be willing to part with used locomotives if you give them resonable price. It is just a few, and they might see it as good PR if you keep their paint job. Think about how much CSX and NS have spent on commercials, if you have more of the public seeing locomotives in your paint scheme, then you are also advertising. Other businesses give away products as prizes because it creates a good, lasting impression. They might also appeeciate the muesums educating the public about safety around RRs, so the class 1s don't have to worry about as many uneducated people.
Sure there are many of the locomotives I suggested, which will make it easy for a muesum to acquire a operating one. However, there was a story on the news wire that groups were working in the eleventh hour to save the last of a class of fairly modern diesels. My point is we shouldn't wait till they are going to be extinct, we should act when there is plenty of time.
tomikawaTT Amen, Paul. Quite frankly, not every artifact produced by man has to be preserved. HMS Victory and USS Constitution are invaluable, because we don't have reels of film, piles of DVDs and innumerable engineering drawings and operating manuals for seventeenth century naval vessels. The same is true of many steam locomotives. On the opposite hand, I can't think of a single class of mass-produced diesel-electric that isn't heavily documented. Quite frankly, while I enjoy seeing steam in operation, or even dead in tow, seeing a steamer stuffed and mounted leaves me unsatisfied. Diesels leave me equally unimpressed even when operating in revenue service (They went from furniture vans to emergency power generators on wheels instead of skids...) I can't see diverting resources to preservation that can be used to advance future technology. If a cat named Kyle has a big pile of his own money with which to: Acquire land and build a museum/repair facility. Hire skilled maintenance people and pay all the usual Union-mandated bennies. Purchase all the locomotives he seems to wish to preserve. Repair and refurbish said fleet to at least adequate cosmetic appearance. It might happen. If operated as a 'pay as you enter' museum it probably wouldn't even pay its running expenses. As for me, I'm looking forward, not back. Chuck (occasional science fiction author)
You like seeing steamers run, so do you wish more had been preserved? Eventually the current diesels will be rare. Already the old covered wagons are rare. I think some things should be preserved. Many people like these locomotives, so why not keep them for future generations that will like them as well. We should always remember our past.
If I had the money to buy the locomotives, I would, unfortunately at this time I can not. However, I am sure someone would donate land or money that has tracks running on/by it. You could negotiate something out with the RR, especially if it is a small branch line your land is near, ex: can use tracks on weekends. Build a simple metal structure to house the locomotives. You could find people would love to work on a locomotive, or enjoy helping on projects. If you price the rides so you make a little money, you can save up for repairs, plus ask for donations from those that visit. The cost to have people come and look around would be minimal as it would be operated by volunteers, and as long as you have sky lights on your building, you wouldn't have a high cost. A entrance fee would go to savings for repairs. I only would have 3 locomotives. Of course you could just partner with an existing museum and raise money to buy the locomotives through fundraisers, ex: sell concessions to visitors.
The OP seems to be working on the notion that the money and operating agreements are just going to fall into place and everything will be just fine. His proposal in the above posting assumes that someone will just open up a money spigot, the railroad will not be a tough negotiator in regard to an operating agreement, enough volunteers with the necessary skills will just turn up, enough visitors will show up to cover costs, etc., etc., etc. He needs to put HIS money where his mouth is.
Kyle,
Scrap steel goes for about 10-12 cents/lb currently.That 200 ton SD40-2 weighs about 200 tons. That is $40,000-$50,000 of cash in a railroad's pocket if the engine is wrecked or the internals are shot. Now, are they going to 'donate' a wreck? I sort of doubt it. A 'running' engine will be worth a lot more.
There are already lots of engines that have been donated, and are rusting away - Just look at most railway museums around the country. Even a big operation like IRM has it's share of 'rust buckets' awaiting restoration due to lack of funds.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Kyle carnej1 CSSHEGEWISCH The OP is pretty glib about where the money is going to come from for such projects. There are dozens of preservation projects in a variety of fields that failed because the hoped-for donations never came in. He also forgets that railroads are businesses, and I don't think that any of the Class I's will unload an SD40-2 for scrap value to a museum or preservation group when they can get a better return on upgrading it to Dash-3 standards or cutting it down to a slug. Reality isn't always pretty, but it's always reality. Out of curiosity, does any RR museum in the U.S currently own any freight Dash 2's? Note that the majority of Dash 2s that the big Class 1s retire are sold on the second-hand locomotive market where they are a valuable commodity, and will be for many years to come.. I am not that worried about the units the O.P mentioned as they are going to be in service in North America for a long time yet, if not on class 1 rosters than with regionals and shortlines.. However many class 1s have either been rebuilding, or looking into rebuilding. I am sure a class 1 will be willing to part with used locomotives if you give them resonable price. It is just a few, and they might see it as good PR if you keep their paint job. Think about how much CSX and NS have spent on commercials, if you have more of the public seeing locomotives in your paint scheme, then you are also advertising. Other businesses give away products as prizes because it creates a good, lasting impression. They might also appeeciate the muesums educating the public about safety around RRs, so the class 1s don't have to worry about as many uneducated people. Sure there are many of the locomotives I suggested, which will make it easy for a muesum to acquire a operating one. However, there was a story on the news wire that groups were working in the eleventh hour to save the last of a class of fairly modern diesels. My point is we shouldn't wait till they are going to be extinct, we should act when there is plenty of time.
"Other Businesses give away products as prizes"-they sure do, usually it's the products that particular company manufactures, they don't often give away the tools and Machinery they own...I'm having visions of Southwest Airlines giving a 737 to a lucky winner..
Many of the various museums and preservation groups are actively working to preserve, restore, and operate Diesel locomotives, even relatively modern ones...so if you are that concerned you might consider joining and volunteering at one of them.
And the Class 1 railroads do occasionally donate locomotives and other equipment to Museums, as you point out it's good P.R and they get a tax write off.
Kyle:
Amen to preserve now. I had the fore sight (for once) to snap a picture of the RS-3 I think it was that was painted up for the Olympics in the early 80's when they were held in the Adorondaks. (I don't think I spelled that right) It was parked in Buffalo, NY near the old Republic Steel mill property. After the Olympics were over for that year the Railroad was disbanded because there was no more need for it. I'll see if I can dig that photo out and share it.
Mr_Dave
Let me be blunt, not to offend you, but to be honest. You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been employed (read: not just volunteering) in the railroad preservation industry for the last 9 years. I currently run one of the largest (equipment wise and miles of track) tourist/museum railroads in the country. Running locomotives DOES tax them, all 4 of main engines have issues which could put them out of service at any moment. They get older every year and run a little less crisp every year. Its a constant battle between locomotives and passenger cars just to keep your head above the water. I am whole heartedly agreeing that more attention does need to be paid to starting funding and stuff earlier than later on locomotives and networking harder. You have to realize that there are a hundred variables to go with any locomotive preserved. People dont like working on locomotives, they like taking pictures of it. I could go ON AND ON about that, but let me leave you with some advice I have learned the hard way. Do what you want done, yourself. Thats the only way people will follow.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
The best way to help is find a worthwhile project that's important to you and find a way to contribute to help make it happen. Talking about what should happen or what would be nice isn't productive and annoys those that have to read it.
It isn't hard for any railfan to list off dozens of missteps in the past and dozens more that might happen in the future where preserving the history of this great industry is concerned. That's just reality and pointing out the obvious and accomplishes nothing for anyone. And just because you can't change everything in one fell swoop doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to do your own little bit to help change something.
Accomplish something, don't type about it at a message board. A thread like this just wastes space.
If you look at diesel preservation across the continent, in fact a good representative cross section already exists, just not in one place. Only a handful of models that might be considered significant, such as Alco's DL-109, are gone forever, and of course quite a number of low-production early diesels.
Apparently at least 2 SD40-2s are already preserved. There is no need to preserve one in every state. Ideally the various museums will work cooperatively to coordinate ongoing diesel preservation, one preserving say an SD70MAC and another 5 states away preserving a C40-8. Too much duplication of effort will usually turn out to be a losing proposition. If a museum gets over-extended and fails there is a real danger its preserved equipment will fall victim to the scrappers. And the best way to ensure a museum survives is to become active as a volunteer (or a major benefactor).
John
Kyle, I feel your pain, and have had these same thoughts in the past. having had the chance to talk to people in the business, I found a few points worth noting, some may have been mentioned.
1. You MUST have a Non profit WITH land and building own the locomotive. Only exception is the UP which I think still operates their steam /heritage stuff under the Marketing budget like the old passenger days. Non profits can and do get large donations that are deductable, this si where you might find a wealthy railfan who wants to help leave a legacy. Some non profits get Grants if their display is also educational as well as historical.
2. AS mentioned the price of scrap.. means an engine can run from 20-100K and no run.. I can buy right now an E-8 shell or a few F units for 50K or under. Can buy a nice F7 for 100K and its ready for work. Does it have dynamic brakes? no.. Lots to consider.
3. At the RR museum of PA you can see a GP9, and a GP30, BOTH inside and nice and you can climb inside one.. theres a GE E44 too, inside.
4. Inside, is where its at, preservation costs way less than trying to run your stuff. Run one and keep the rest nice.
5. Volunteers are worth their weight in Gold. Having been to many museums, I have seen more and more such knowledgeable folks. Many are elderly, but I am happy to not let their knowledge and history go to waste. At one shop I got into a 2 hour discussion on the E unit electrical systems !!
6. Target a couple and make their location known and get a Local feel for the interest in getting one. SOME railroads will take the Donation write off vs the cash, IF you pay to move it... Think how much the UP took as write offs in the very early 60's on Big Boys, to museums...some they towed themselves to museums.... Get to know people on Both sides of the isle, the Museums/fans AND the railroads...IF they know you and what you represent, many will try to do a good PR move.
Finally, as has been said, YOU have to make an effort. IF the people will lead, the leaders will follow.., and so will the fans..
Kyle, I like your enthusiasm. Here are some facts to go along with that youthful vigor:
1) Establishing a 501 (c) 3 takes time and a bit of money. Creating a home for your group is another story altogether. Sites that meet the criteria (next to a railroad, can run tourist trains, ie) are not just sitting around all over the country. Those that are available may face 'saturation' from other sites. See Eastern PA as an examaple. Within two hours of Philadelphia, you have:
A) PA RR Museum, Strasburg
B) Strasburg RR
C) Steamtown NHS, Scranton PA
D) New Hope and Ivyland RR
E) Black River and Western, Flemington NJ
F) Wilmington and Western, (forgot the name), DE
G) The URHS site in Boonton, NJ (maybe a bit over two hours....)
H) Cape May Scenic, Cape May NJ
I) Middletown and Hummelstown RR
J) Wanamaker, Kempton and Southern, Kempton PA
and probably some more I'm forgetting......
2) Working with an established museum is a much better route, but you have to take their mission into consideration.
3) Identifying a 'specific' loco in your area which fits your criteria and establishing a relationship with the owner early on is key.
More to follow......
K) Reading Co Technical & Historical Soc. Hamburg PA, They have a GP 30 and 35, both ex-Reading.
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