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Bringing back freight electrics on NEC.

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Bringing back freight electrics on NEC.
Posted by zkr123 on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 11:04 AM
Why haven't NS or CSX considered a freight version of the ALP45DP for local runs on the NEC?
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Posted by NorthWest on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 5:18 PM

Because-

-It would require an expensive redesign.

-Dual modes are inherently inefficient (as discussed in the past).

-Catenary on the NEC has trouble rather often as it is.

-It is more flexible and cost effective to use diesels, as there is very little freight traffic on the NEC.

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:48 PM

To add to what has been said, the PRR had extensive electric freight lines east of Harrisburg/Enola, but in the Conrail era when most of the freight was moved to the Reading lines, the remaining electric operations were segmented.  The decision was made 30 years ago to de-energize remaining segments, and go diesel.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 15, 2014 3:56 AM

Heavy freight trains put very different stresses on tracks, particularly on curves and through switches and diamonds.  High speed requires excellent track conditions, and a lot of freight traffic on the NEC woud probably double the maintenance expense, and Amtrak would have to charge accordingly.  If all high-speed portions were four-tracks, with Acela and Regionals using mostly the inner tracks maintained for high speed, and the outer tracks used by commuter and freight trains, then electric frieght might make some economic sense.  At the present moment it would provide more problems than any cost-reduction.

No reason, however, why a high-speed passenger locomotive would not make a good unit for the Tropicana Juice Train or a hot shot intermodal train, especially two in mutliiple. 

Remember that the New Haven used the Alco PA's and DL109's on Shore Line freights at night and on passenger by day.

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Posted by caldreamer on Thursday, May 15, 2014 8:35 AM

The Southern Pacific used their H24-66 Trainmasters for commuter service from San Jose to San Francisco during the day in freight service at night. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, May 15, 2014 10:46 AM

Amtrak does not want freight traffic on the NEC. PERIOD!  They put up with the traffic they must.  There is no through freight traffic on the NEC, all the freight traffic that does show up is local in nature.  CSX & NS handle their through freight traffic on their own lines. 

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, May 15, 2014 10:47 AM

If they were running high-utilization, high productivity service under the wire, then it might pay to have a dual mode loco.  But, the amount of time and hp-hrs produced under the wire makes the purchase of a $7M locomotive (vs $2M for straight diesel) a poor investment.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:33 PM
The PRR never used electric engines for switching. They used 0-4-0, 0-6-0 and 2-8-0 steam followed by every known model of first generation diesel switcher.
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Posted by Leo_Ames on Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:48 PM

ndbprr
The PRR never used electric engines for switching. They used 0-4-0, 0-6-0 and 2-8-0 steam followed by every known model of first generation diesel switcher.

Sorry, but that's not true. Take their 42 B1 0-6-0 switchers for instance. Not sure if there were any others, but those several dozen examples were successful and used for years for switching in electrified territory.

And even when you remove all the one off experiments, prototypes, and custom orders, there are definitely 1st generation production diesel switchers that PRR didn't buy like EMC's SC model, the various high hood Alco switchers, any of Lima's switcher designs, Baldwin's DS-4-4-1000, etc. 

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Posted by ndbprr on Friday, May 16, 2014 5:36 AM
The B1 switchers were not used for freight. They were used in passenger terminals. After the demise of Broad Street station they were used at 30th street only in the coach yard. They also had a top speed of 10mph which would not be good on the corridor.
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Posted by Leo_Ames on Friday, May 16, 2014 8:35 AM

You didn't quantify that you were just exclusively about freight switching.

And a look at Wikipedia, hardly definitive I know, claims a 25mph top speed and that the BB3's did see some freight service on Long Island's Bay Ridge Branch.

And here are some PRR examples handling freight switching chores. 

Edit: Didn't notice the baggage car in the last shot. Is the one above it of a express boxcar?

Either way, on the PRR controlled LIRR, some of these 42 locomotives saw freight duties at the very least.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, May 16, 2014 10:10 AM

The B1's were primarily passenger switchers that worked Sunnyside, their use on LIRR was primarily to work the carfloats since the New York Connecting had the same electrification as PRR and NH, quite unlike the rest of LIRR.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by ndbprr on Friday, May 16, 2014 10:44 AM
The Op asked about NS and CSX locals on the corridor.
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, May 16, 2014 1:42 PM

ndbprr
The Op asked about NS and CSX locals on the corridor.

To my knowledge, PRR used only steam and diesel switching power in "Corridor" territory.  The Rats were too slow and too small to be useful for much other than (as noted) carfloat switching ... and a great deal of the siding track was quite naturally unelectrified, so there would be little point in expensive dual-mode power that engaged in frequent transition, to say nothing of AC-only designs.  You would need very long poles and chains indeed to work with the latter ... or perhaps a Milwaukee-style roll-out cable? 

There were comparable multimode locomotive designs available to PRR -- the tri-modes adding the option of battery-electric operation inside warehouses or building enclosures.  There are also 'advanced' designs of oil-electric switching power from the early '30s, and the Steins steam switching-locomotive patent (one of the reasons for the development of Franklin type D) is from the very early '50s.  I think it is notable that none of these were 'proceeded with'...

Clessie Cummins mentioned that there was one PRR senior executive who was very interested in internal-combustion power, who died in 1927, and his loss effectively shut down further substantial research or interest by PRR.  Someone here is likely to know exactly who that was, and possibly confirm what Cummins said.

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Posted by ndbprr on Friday, May 16, 2014 4:30 PM
My undetstanding is they stayed with steam due to loyalty to on line coal mines. Obviously once diesels started the landslide they had to accept the realities.
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 19, 2014 4:14 AM

I saw, as a youngster, DD-1's on Long Island freight trains on several occasions, mostly on the Long Beach branch.  B-1's were LIRR's at Bay Ridge, for local switchin, the LIRR freights were steam and then diesel.  The New Haven used electrics to Bay Ridge, EF-1's and EF-3's, and much much later, after GP-7's, EF-4's.  The PRR had one B-1at Wilmington, one at Baltimore, several at Harrisburg, and lots at Sunnyside, 30th St., Penn Station, NY.  Other switching was steam and then diesel.   Washington Terminal had standard PRR B-6 0-6-0 switchers lettered for Washington Terminal.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, May 19, 2014 10:04 AM

ndbprr
My undetstanding is they stayed with steam due to loyalty to on line coal mines. Obviously once diesels started the landslide they had to accept the realities.

I would think that PRR stuck with steam as late as they did more because of the conservatism of management than loyalty to the mine owners.  Consider that with the possible exception of the M-1, PRR did not have any modern steam designs until the J-1 and the various and sundry duplex-drives.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 19, 2014 10:33 AM

The M-1 Mountan type was a good, modern, versatile, locomotive, and the equal of some railroad's 4-8-4's.  Steam progress was held back because the combination of the depression and widespread eastern electrification made purchase of new steam power unnecessary.   But once they decided to dieselize, when Saunders became President, they did so possibly too rapidliy with too many oddball types, even though we railfans enjoyed the Baldwins.   It was only fifteen years when the first mass purchases of diesel road power began to the last steam operated.   Pretty fast for such a vast system.

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Posted by Jim in Fla on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 7:30 AM
To echo what DAVEKLEPPER wrote about the LIRR, I too remember when I was a youngster, probably the late 1940s, the team track at Malverne had a third rail. The freights were pulled by quiet locos but later the noisy diesels with their horns took over the work. I've seen photos of DD-1s with their "tenders" (flat cars with air tanks) in freight service.

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