The P4 and P6 are both AC designs.
ML
BNSF has never gone in for DC SD70's, so I'd be rather surprised to see them embrace a EMD design for such assignments even if they get the bugs worked out of the design.
I believe that the ~25 or so SD75I's in the late 1990's have been their only DC EMD order to date. Otherwise, it has been all GE (First, DC units and now the AC motored A1A C4's) for the types of assignments this design is intended to fulfill.
I'd be surprised to see that change to any degree with this four motored AC design unless EMD hits a home run which they look set not to.
BNSF's orders for 2014 are;
275 GE ES44C4 locomotives
180 EMD SD70ACe locomotives
20 EMD SD70ACe-P6 locomotives
EMD started on the 20 unit order anticipating that BNSF would want them built as P4 versions, but BNSF wasn't satisfied with the performance of the P4 version so far. So the 20 completed P4 locomotives have been sent to Progress Rail in Mayfield, KY to be converted to P6 versions. In the mean time the EMD P4 test locomotives have been back on Raton Pass working the performance issues out.
efftenxrfe "they both laid down", you said, makes me think that "a lot of {engrs} in that part of this nation ride along after they make the machine (train) go, sit back, chaw, and wait 'til they get to their terminal. "Laid down on me.." No...!,We fought. Feeble, cowardly, scary, shame for them- 100% of my,trains, I made my trains perform:, they, "she," laid down on me!," did not apply. This is flailing me...no way can you say the train was not destined to "lay down." The engr " knew".....the train couldn't ascend the grade. Or that the engineer might force it over the hill... This is a coward's statement: "she laid down on me."'
"they both laid down", you said, makes me think that "a lot of {engrs} in that part of this nation ride along after they make the machine (train) go, sit back, chaw, and wait 'til they get to their terminal.
"Laid down on me.." No...!,We fought.
Feeble, cowardly, scary, shame for them- 100% of my,trains, I made my trains perform:, they, "she," laid down on me!," did not apply.
This is flailing me...no way can you say the train was not destined to "lay down."
The engr " knew".....the train couldn't ascend the grade. Or that the engineer might force it over the hill...
This is a coward's statement: "she laid down on me."'
When they quit loading and can't be coaxed back to life or if the crankcase overpressure alarm is tripped and can't be reset; or if the computer 'freezes' and won't respond to being 'rebooted' - these are all modern day maladies that cause engines to 'lay down' on their operators. In many territories a train that is powered by two units needs both to continue - even if they are not on the ruling grade on the territory.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
'
I have no issues dispatching one on a 4-6000 ton intermodal. However I had one last week in the consist of a grain train and another on a CBR (crude by rail) train, they both laid down. With the kind of traffic density I am expected to deal with today, any service interruption is one too many.
I personally am curious to see if CN acquires any additional SD70ACEs after the ex EMD demo units they got recently. Lately it's seemed like EMD can't get as many sales out there as GE. So seeing that list there makes me happy to know EMD is still up and kickin'! Very excited to see how their new P6 performs. I've always been a fan of the ACEs.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
jrbernierFor GE, this was a way to get out of the DC drive market place. I feel that the AC drive has become the 'standard' in North American railroads, and GE is trying to push the old DC technology to the grave a little faster.
Exactly....
The big, diversified electrical groups - GE, Siemens, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Alsthom, ABB etc. - produce variable speed AC drives for all sorts of other industrial applications, so using that expertise and technology for the transport market is the obvious thing to do.
When BN ordered the first SD70MAC's they (metaphorically) put up a sign saying 'AC is the future', and with the BNSF C4 and P4 orders the sign says 'DC is dead and buried'. (We got to that point in Europe at least 10 years ago, other than effectively obsolete - in design terms - imported EMD locos and EMD DC traction equipment for Vossloh-built machines).
Tony
GDRMCo There's been no new DC locomotives built for use in North America since 2011 I believe, exports is a different story.
There's been no new DC locomotives built for use in North America since 2011 I believe, exports is a different story.
If you are speaking strictly of 6 axle mainline service freight locomotives from GE and EMD you are correct.
There have, However been some Commuter, and switcher/ roadswitcher type units built new with DC traction motors since 2011...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
carnej1 beaulieu No other Class I railroad has ordered C4s or P4s. Every other Class I railroad has gone with ES44AC or SD70ACe with six traction motors. I expect that BNSF will be the only buyer amongst the Big Seven or "Big Eight" if you count Ferromex. Although the RR is not part of the "Big Eight" Florida East Coast has ordered 24 ES44C4's for delivery this year so BNSF will not be the only customer for the model.
beaulieu No other Class I railroad has ordered C4s or P4s. Every other Class I railroad has gone with ES44AC or SD70ACe with six traction motors. I expect that BNSF will be the only buyer amongst the Big Seven or "Big Eight" if you count Ferromex.
No other Class I railroad has ordered C4s or P4s. Every other Class I railroad has gone with ES44AC or SD70ACe with six traction motors. I expect that BNSF will be the only buyer amongst the Big Seven or "Big Eight" if you count Ferromex.
Although the RR is not part of the "Big Eight" Florida East Coast has ordered 24 ES44C4's for delivery this year so BNSF will not be the only customer for the model.
The 'C4' concept was a GE idea. The plan is to use only AC 'parts' and get the same performance on manifest up through premium trains that they were getting with the DC drive locomotives. If the C4's are used in unit train 'drag' service, the return is not there. For GE, this was a way to get out of the DC drive market place. I feel that the AC drive has become the 'standard' in North American railroads, and GE is trying to push the old DC technology to the grave a little faster. Even CN has gone AC as of late.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The only thing the C4 is lacking vs the normal ES44AC is 2 traction motors and associated inverters, the software is the same as that fitted to the ES44AHs. There was a rumor at some point BNSF was going to turn them to normal ES44ACs as they were overhauled but I'd call that a believe it when I see it.
...IIRC, NS leased a pair form BNSF for testing...
GDRMCo BNSF is getting a cheap loco with claimed performance figures of a DC loco, they just don't seem to be able to keep them on the trains they're the best on. As for FEC, being a mostly flat RR with decent HPT trains the C4s will do well there.
BNSF is getting a cheap loco with claimed performance figures of a DC loco, they just don't seem to be able to keep them on the trains they're the best on. As for FEC, being a mostly flat RR with decent HPT trains the C4s will do well there.
BNSF seems to like the C4s because they are cheaper than a normal AC loco, problem is they can't haul as much and suffer the same problem as the high HP 4-axle locos, too much power thru too few axles. On high HPT trains they do alright as there's generally enough power in the consist to avoid having to get down and lug but on anything else (which they do show up on) they're not actually as good as their DC counterparts they're supposed to be as good as.
GDRMCo Seems like a winner until you talk to BNSF hoggers and they tell you what a pile the C4 is vs a Dash-9 or ES44DC.
Seems like a winner until you talk to BNSF hoggers and they tell you what a pile the C4 is vs a Dash-9 or ES44DC.
C4? Sounds explosive!
Sorta sounds like 'sand house' talk. With over 700+ units delivered, and over 300 ordered - If there was a problem, it would be out in the open right now. The C4's provide more CTE and control over a wider range than the old ES44DC engines. The crews I have spoken with(La Crosse) feel that these are the best overall engines for merchandise trains that they have seen(of course, 'new' engines are always nice to have). Only the ES44AC or SD70ACe engines are better at heavy unit train service. They must be good based on the sales, and the fact that EMD is going to offer the SD70ACe-P4 variant as competition.
I'll defer to you since all I know are GE's performance claims and repeat large orders from BNSF for them.
What sort of problems do they have? Slippery compared to something like a C44-9W?
eriekingSome other thoughts: I can't help but notice that there are no "conventionally powered" (DC) locomotives on order. The last ES44DCs and SD70M-2s were delivered in 2011 - it's been three years since then, and no new orders seem to be forthcoming.
GE's C4 and EMD's take on the concept are the future for orders of mainline power for things like manifest assignments.
They offer increased standardization since they share many more components with their AC CC cousins, they meet or exceed the performance of their DC counterparts, have no special needs like a SD70M or such would have on a heavy grade lugging coal in a consist of AC power, and are at a competitive price to modern 6 axle DC power.
BNSF, a major late purchaser of modern DC power, has already embraced the concept. I wouldn't be surprised to see some others follow as they continue to prove themselves. Kind of surprised it hasn't already happened since the concept seems like a winner.
blue streak 1Has some of the commuter outfits bought Brookville and other builder's DC locos ? Tri-Rail and MBTA come to mind ? Others ?
MBTA's units are AC.
I think you are thinking of SunRail, who received rebuilt MARC units with new cabs, so not new units.
Leo_AmesIf I were to take a stab in the dark, I'd guess at least some will end up with Canadian National. They have more M-2's than anyone else and acquire far more used late model power than anyone else does these days.
I agree, this seems likely.
The SD70ACe-P6 is the change to 6 inverters. Previously, with one per truck, if one failed, the truck was lost. With three, only one traction motor is lost. GEs have always had three per truck. Both EMD and GE are offering AC 6 axle units with 4 axles powered, providing about the same performance as a DC locomotive.
erieking Some other thoughts: I can't help but notice that there are no "conventionally powered" (DC) locomotives on order. The last ES44DCs and SD70M-2s were delivered in 2011 - it's been three years since then, and no new orders seem to be forthcoming.
Some other thoughts: I can't help but notice that there are no "conventionally powered" (DC) locomotives on order. The last ES44DCs and SD70M-2s were delivered in 2011 - it's been three years since then, and no new orders seem to be forthcoming.
Some other thoughts: I can't help but notice that there are no "conventionally powered" (DC) locomotives on order. The last ES44DCs and SD70M-2s were delivered in 2011 - it's been three years since then, and no new orders seem to be forthcoming. I've also heard that EMD plans on updating the SD70ACe with better software and improved electronics in an attempt to make it more competitive (this also includes transitioning from one inverter per truck to one inverter per motor). Anyone know what's going on with this?
They're going to be going elsewhere. They were leased, not owned, and they won't be holding on to their leases they've already said. So they won't be going to Maine for the Montreal Maine & Atlantic and they sold Rail America half a decade ago so they don't own any other lines (To the best of my knowledge... correct me if I'm wrong).
If I were to take a stab in the dark, I'd guess at least some will end up with Canadian National. They have more M-2's than anyone else and acquire far more used late model power than anyone else does these days. And the three CIT leasers could end up almost anywhere with short or long-term leases just like the rest of their lease fleet.
Streak,
Good question! I suspect leasing them out may be the best option. Those engines are rather big/heavy for most short line use...
erieking The Florida East Coast has just ordered 24 ES44C4's, which they plan to use to replace their SD70M-2's. Is there any other locomotive news for 2014, or are these orders all we have to look forward to this year?
The Florida East Coast has just ordered 24 ES44C4's, which they plan to use to replace their SD70M-2's.
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