There was a 1 cylinder test 265h at Argonne right next to the 710.
CPM500 rvos1979I agree, there is a big difference between a high speed truck engine, and a medium speed railroad unit. SCR may or may not bee needed, and EGR valves may survive longer in the cooler exhaust. EMD may need to switch to a four stroke engine, and idle reduction gear may need to be added to reduce engine wear. One thing I can say that will happen, the learning curve will probably be steep for all involved....... AESS (automatic engine start stop) has been standard equipment on new locos for years..there are a number of suppliers of retrofit kits. EMD designed the 4-stroke-cycle 265H engine under GM owndership. It did not fare well in the field here in NA, but has found acceptance in China...in the form of 300 locos.
rvos1979I agree, there is a big difference between a high speed truck engine, and a medium speed railroad unit. SCR may or may not bee needed, and EGR valves may survive longer in the cooler exhaust. EMD may need to switch to a four stroke engine, and idle reduction gear may need to be added to reduce engine wear. One thing I can say that will happen, the learning curve will probably be steep for all involved.......
AESS (automatic engine start stop) has been standard equipment on new locos for years..there are a number of suppliers of retrofit kits.
EMD designed the 4-stroke-cycle 265H engine under GM owndership. It did not fare well in the field here in NA, but has found acceptance in China...in the form of 300 locos.
EMD supposedly did do some research on getting the 265 engine to meet the more stringent air emissions requirements. EMD could also use the CAT C280 series engine which is comparable to the 265 H..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
For particulates?
YoHo1975 I would like to see some statistics on the harmful effects of cooking. In particular in the Central Valley. The air Quality in Roseville is significantly worse than the air quality in other parts of the state I've lived in and visited...more populous parts of the state. Are you saying that it isn't that giant hump yard down the block, but rather backyard bbqs causing this? And that the problem isn't as bad in LA because...well, the only thing that could fix it is the ocean breeze. But there are so many many more people cooking there.
I would like to see some statistics on the harmful effects of cooking. In particular in the Central Valley. The air Quality in Roseville is significantly worse than the air quality in other parts of the state I've lived in and visited...more populous parts of the state. Are you saying that it isn't that giant hump yard down the block, but rather backyard bbqs causing this? And that the problem isn't as bad in LA because...well, the only thing that could fix it is the ocean breeze. But there are so many many more people cooking there.
http://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/8896 (sorry for unactivated link)
The UCR study was for the south coast air quality basin, which is a different beast from the San Joaquin Valley. The report states that cooking is the second largest source of particulates and unfortunately is silent on the largest source in the south coast. The problem with cooking isn't so much the amount of particulates from a single source, but the sheer number of sources.
I'd be interested in a ranked list of air pollution sources in the San Joaquin Valley.
I remember what the air in the San Diego area looked like in the 1970's, especially when the air from LA was blown south. Probably the most significant reason that the air is cleaner now is that cars are a lot cleaner and the older, dirtier cars are off the road. Getting the older cars off the road is a lot easier if the new cars are reasonably priced, have reasonable performance (which includes gas mileage - note that the mid-70's cars were notorious for poor mileage due to emissions and safety regs) and have the desired features. It wasn't until the early to mid-80's that engine performance (both power and mileage) returned to early 1970's levels and it was the early to mid-80's when the air started to become noticeably cleaner.
- Erik
erikem CSSHEGEWISCH Suggest that you find a place of employment where clean air and water is not important. Saying that some environmental regulations are getting out of control is not the same thing as saying that clean air and water are not important. IMO, regulations are dysfunctional when an already controlled source (e.g. diesel engines used in transportation) becomes even more tightly controlled, when a significantly larger source (e.g. particulates from cooking, especially grilling meats) is left unregulated. The optimal regulation strategy from an economic standpoint is where the cost per pound of emissions reduction is equal for all sources. Getting away from that ideal is wasting money and likely to result in more pollution rather than less.
CSSHEGEWISCH Suggest that you find a place of employment where clean air and water is not important.
Suggest that you find a place of employment where clean air and water is not important.
I'd honestly love to see some stats on this.
Well Paul, All I can say is that if the discussion on these topics is as well thought out as yours generally is, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, I've found that these topics tend to involve a lot more keyboard smashing than thoughtfulness.
It may all be justified, it's true, but it is not very useful for a forum that is here to inform.
And I didn't invite the moderators to shut this thread down. I was merely expressing my opinion that the political content of the posts had reached the point where it would be shut down.
Personally I would tolerate more political content than the mods, because these topics cannot help but be political.
But again, this is the locomotive forum and I have far more interest in knowing the details of this and similar locomotives the behavior of CARB is really a side topic to that.
Paul Milenkovic As to being welcome to effect change, I am reading that people are trying to effect change but encountering roadblocks at every turn. As to asking truckers not to do business with your state, are you also asking consumers in other states not to do business with your state? I am in an agricultural state that competes in certain products with your state, and I would be glad for people to do more business with my state. And when your state tax base collapses, are you asking taxpayers in other states for an eventual Federal bailout? As to the complaint of other responders that the trucking people want us to breathe filthy air, yes, there are engineering, economic, and social tradeoffs in many matters. I would also like to eat food that isn't tainted when "reefer" units start breaking down from ill-conceived emissions regs. As to another post welcoming the difficulties that truckers are encountering as bringing a return of perishable and produce traffic to the rails, that is short sighted thinking if I ever saw it. Our trucker friends on this forum are telling us "Do not ask for whom that bell tolls, it tolls for thee . . ." What is happening to the trucking industry is around the corner from happening to railroading, and that is why the truckers should feel welcome on this forum to speak freely of their experiences.
As to being welcome to effect change, I am reading that people are trying to effect change but encountering roadblocks at every turn. As to asking truckers not to do business with your state, are you also asking consumers in other states not to do business with your state? I am in an agricultural state that competes in certain products with your state, and I would be glad for people to do more business with my state.
And when your state tax base collapses, are you asking taxpayers in other states for an eventual Federal bailout?
As to the complaint of other responders that the trucking people want us to breathe filthy air, yes, there are engineering, economic, and social tradeoffs in many matters. I would also like to eat food that isn't tainted when "reefer" units start breaking down from ill-conceived emissions regs.
As to another post welcoming the difficulties that truckers are encountering as bringing a return of perishable and produce traffic to the rails, that is short sighted thinking if I ever saw it. Our trucker friends on this forum are telling us "Do not ask for whom that bell tolls, it tolls for thee . . ." What is happening to the trucking industry is around the corner from happening to railroading, and that is why the truckers should feel welcome on this forum to speak freely of their experiences.
+1
The last two sentences of the quote above are an extremely important message for us all.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
YoHo1975 I'm so glad when people tell me what my state does or doesn't do. I'm getting kinda sick and tired of every single discussion about Emissions standards devolving into a discussion of trucking. Telling me that truckers and trucking companies have lied and tampered with emissions to avoid costs doesn't make me feel sorry for them. It makes me think they're lying and cheating. CARB and California has every right to set their own emissions standards. If you don't like it you're welcome to try to effect change or move. Or in the case of truckers, not do business within the state.
I'm so glad when people tell me what my state does or doesn't do.
I'm getting kinda sick and tired of every single discussion about Emissions standards devolving into a discussion of trucking.
Telling me that truckers and trucking companies have lied and tampered with emissions to avoid costs doesn't make me feel sorry for them. It makes me think they're lying and cheating. CARB and California has every right to set their own emissions standards. If you don't like it you're welcome to try to effect change or move. Or in the case of truckers, not do business within the state.
I for one welcome any and all discussions regarding the challenges that truckers, owner-operators or fleet operators, are having in complying with emission standards. What is being told here is information I am not getting anywhere else, and it is explaining volumes of why the produce aisle in the supermarket has gotten so pricey as of late.
As to the threats of inviting Moderators to shut this thread down, the David P Morgan Trains Magazine did not shy from controversial topics, articles, and discussions, not just of railroading but of peer transportation modes as well. The truckers commenting here are performing a great service to society in their comments as the story being told is one I am not hearing from anyone else, be they on the political Left or Right.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
Due to changes in FRA regs., the Class 1 railroad maintenance cycle is going to evolve from quarterly inspections to a semi-annual inspection. So, any aftertreatment device that cannot endure for 6 months is going to be a non-starter.
Sigh...
While I wait for this thread to be closed, I will point out that there ARE Delta Smelt in the Sacramento delta, so that's some misinformation there.
AND, the law protecting them has cost very few jobs. More job losses have been caused by the ongoing drought.
Further, I have no problem with all that produce moving by rail instead of truck anyway, so that's fine with me. long strings of reefers heading east is a tradition around here.
Anyway,
It sounds to me, based on what I've heard from Railroad people, not truckers, that EGR and Particulate filters are a bit of a long shot, but big old two cycle low speed 3000-4000 HP diesels aren't truck engines. They aren't run like truck engines, their duty and maintenance cycles are different, they are shopped differently. The experience of truckers in this area is valuable, but far from exhaustive and when you add on the inability to discuss this topic without getting into politics...rudely, well, you can understand why I'd just as soon not have to hear about it every time we bring these things up.
Ironeagle2006 CPM up until Jan 1st 2011 CARB was not interfering with Interstate Commerce in the State of Californa either with their Regulations either. Now they ARE by banning Trucks and all Diesel Powered Equipment from Working on the Roadways built Prior to 2011 by 2014 is the Drop Dead Date for Everyone. By 2014 Just to Run into the State of Cali from say Arizona you will need to have a 2012 Model Year Truck. They BANNED all older Trucks in the Ports Banned the Shipping Lines from even Running a Standby Genarator ON A SHIP Tied up to the Dock in the Ports of the State of Californa. Trust me when I say there will be FINES there will be FINES CARB was given the Power by the State of Californa to do what EVER THEY WANT WHENEVER they want in the State of CA. They are even thinking of BANNING Black Cars as they produce to much Heat off them and cost to much in Greenhouse Gas to Cool with AC. CARB is where the EPA gets alot of their IDEAS and along with the Rest of the Nation. NJ NY and alot of the NE have what is called a Snap Idle Test that if your engine Smokes at All your Placed OOS til THEY DETERMINE it is Fixed. Here is an IDEA of CARB's Power in CA just to give you a Clue I had to take a Load out there last trip out there with my W900 new truck is due Next week. Well I get out there make my Drop get Pulled in for a so called Smoke Check. I passed then as the CARB guy had me in there he Plugged into my ECM to see if I had changed the Parmaters on my engine at all from Factory settings and used any NON CARB approved Parts in that. He was mad that he could not find anything to hit me with. The Guy beside me a Company Driver for a larger Fleet well his Company was trying to be sneaky with a couple things and say it was repaired when it was NOT done. His company wrote a Comcheck to CARB for 10K Dollars right then and There for Tampering with EMISSIONS Equipment. What had they done Unplugged a Sensor that led to the DPF filter. Instead of Changing a Plugged DPF they tried to milk it back to the Yard for repairs. Instead they got Hammered by the CARB Gestapo. I asked my Inspector how CARB was going to handle the RR's when they have the Same Equipment on that we in the OTR side do. He was like if they screw with it Disable it at all the Fines the Board is thinking are going to Start at around 100K per Occurance and if they refuse to learn GO UP from there is what he has heard from his BOSSES.
CPM up until Jan 1st 2011 CARB was not interfering with Interstate Commerce in the State of Californa either with their Regulations either. Now they ARE by banning Trucks and all Diesel Powered Equipment from Working on the Roadways built Prior to 2011 by 2014 is the Drop Dead Date for Everyone. By 2014 Just to Run into the State of Cali from say Arizona you will need to have a 2012 Model Year Truck. They BANNED all older Trucks in the Ports Banned the Shipping Lines from even Running a Standby Genarator ON A SHIP Tied up to the Dock in the Ports of the State of Californa.
Trust me when I say there will be FINES there will be FINES CARB was given the Power by the State of Californa to do what EVER THEY WANT WHENEVER they want in the State of CA. They are even thinking of BANNING Black Cars as they produce to much Heat off them and cost to much in Greenhouse Gas to Cool with AC. CARB is where the EPA gets alot of their IDEAS and along with the Rest of the Nation. NJ NY and alot of the NE have what is called a Snap Idle Test that if your engine Smokes at All your Placed OOS til THEY DETERMINE it is Fixed.
Here is an IDEA of CARB's Power in CA just to give you a Clue I had to take a Load out there last trip out there with my W900 new truck is due Next week. Well I get out there make my Drop get Pulled in for a so called Smoke Check. I passed then as the CARB guy had me in there he Plugged into my ECM to see if I had changed the Parmaters on my engine at all from Factory settings and used any NON CARB approved Parts in that. He was mad that he could not find anything to hit me with. The Guy beside me a Company Driver for a larger Fleet well his Company was trying to be sneaky with a couple things and say it was repaired when it was NOT done. His company wrote a Comcheck to CARB for 10K Dollars right then and There for Tampering with EMISSIONS Equipment. What had they done Unplugged a Sensor that led to the DPF filter. Instead of Changing a Plugged DPF they tried to milk it back to the Yard for repairs. Instead they got Hammered by the CARB Gestapo. I asked my Inspector how CARB was going to handle the RR's when they have the Same Equipment on that we in the OTR side do. He was like if they screw with it Disable it at all the Fines the Board is thinking are going to Start at around 100K per Occurance and if they refuse to learn GO UP from there is what he has heard from his BOSSES.
Interesting that they are checking already. I watched an article on Motor week about trucks last Saturday and the process of new diesels using LNG for fuel. Several trucking companies are signing up for this type of fuel on new rigs. It will take some time to get fuel stations on board along the interstate systems but I know the Union Pacific has two of the Dash 840CW units modified by GE and added a fuel tank between them for testing. This took place in the early ninties and I never saw a report on the performance of those units.
Any one know the results of that testing on the UP.
Larry
I ran across a recent report on the UC Riverside website about particulates from cooking exceed particulates from Diesel trucks and presumably diesel locomotives. Granted, cooking may not generate as much NOx as in-state diesel engines, but it does call into question whether CARB is making the right call on emissions regulations.
Presumably, since the EGR can be installed later, it can also be removed later if it doesn't work out. Since without the EGR it's just a standard Tier 2 V12 710 under the hood.
Does anyone know if the ECO kit can be set up for Tier 3 the way the SD70 16-710s can?
The EGR piping on these things severely compromises power assembly access.
CAZEPHYR YoHo1975 I was actually told by a Roseville employee that additional units are already down in Colton, but I'm confused as to what this group of 25 is. The SD59MX isn't experimental and at least initially they came out of EMD "stock." Is 9900 part of a new set of 25 units? Or are they retrofitting all of the 59MXs with experimental equipment? The 9900 is one of the twenty five SD60M models that were modified by EMD for the Union Pacific with new computer controlled 710 motors. They also got new radiators with increased capacity and new crash resistant fuel tanks along with other modifications. They are now called SD59MX models since the 710 motor has 3200 HP and is a twelve cylinder version. The 9900 was selected for the special scubber type exhaust set up to test the experimental set up and is labeled as experimental. Who knows what the results are at this time. It may be a public relations move but the rebuilt units are used for local runs on the FRC and the Redding Local here in Northern California. CZ
YoHo1975 I was actually told by a Roseville employee that additional units are already down in Colton, but I'm confused as to what this group of 25 is. The SD59MX isn't experimental and at least initially they came out of EMD "stock." Is 9900 part of a new set of 25 units? Or are they retrofitting all of the 59MXs with experimental equipment?
I was actually told by a Roseville employee that additional units are already down in Colton, but I'm confused as to what this group of 25 is. The SD59MX isn't experimental and at least initially they came out of EMD "stock." Is 9900 part of a new set of 25 units? Or are they retrofitting all of the 59MXs with experimental equipment?
The 9900 is one of the twenty five SD60M models that were modified by EMD for the Union Pacific with new computer controlled 710 motors. They also got new radiators with increased capacity and new crash resistant fuel tanks along with other modifications. They are now called SD59MX models since the 710 motor has 3200 HP and is a twelve cylinder version. The 9900 was selected for the special scubber type exhaust set up to test the experimental set up and is labeled as experimental. Who knows what the results are at this time.
It may be a public relations move but the rebuilt units are used for local runs on the FRC and the Redding Local here in Northern California.
CZ
Thanks, but I know what an SD59MX is, you didn't answer the question AT ALL.
The Press release talks about 25 experimental units. What are those units?
The SD59MX order consists of 24 not in any way experimental EMD SD32ECO units. Those ARE NOT EXPERIMENTAL. The 9900 is the ONLY EXPERIMENTAL UNIT.
So, is the press release being factious or are more experimental units coming?
I think that this project is mostly to humor CARB. All the equipment being evaluated is provided by various vendors trying to sell their product. EMD's participation is probably only to provide drawings so that the equipment will fit and to observe the results. UP probably feels that CARB will require that all locomotives no matter how old will will have to meet the latest emission requirements. I would like to see how this would work on a really worn out GP38.
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