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Question about the old PCB/Askarel transformers from the 30s/40s

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  • Member since
    March 2010
  • 266 posts
Posted by rrlineman on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 8:59 AM

AS a amtrak LINEMAN/POWER DIRECTOR employee of 35 yrs and from a PRR family, half the storys about PCB'S are crap!

As built, alll the PRR transformers were filled with MINERAL oil. from the signal line transformers to the big sub station ones to the 1's on the loco's and MU cars. the poly chlorenated Bytelnals oils from GE did not appear in widespred use until the lat 40's in RR equipment. their high temp flash point and the need to filter the oil less due to heat break downs and carbon formations in the mineral oils was the big selling points. also the heat to air transfer rate was more effficent. another problem was that mineral oil would over time asorb water whereas the PCB oils would not. and the lifespan(?) of mineral oil to PCB was  another reason.(think cost to change every 2 yrs or so  to 5+ or more).

My father worked at wilmington shops for 42 yrs,retireing as a truck insp. he also worked the wreck train for more then 15 yrs as a on call member. he use to joke how the guys would "wash" their arms in the drums of the old pcb's because it broke down the crud on their hands  2 yrs after he retired in 1976,a group of him and other retirees from that time frame were brought in for PCB testing. they tested about 20-30 guys from what i remeber my father telling me. no one tested for PCB in their system. yet 20  newer guys from the loco shop all tested postive.for minute traces. now explain how guys who were around the stuff for 35+ yrs had no traces but guys with 10yrs or less did????

as for the GG-1's , MU'S and E-44's and the big substation transformers, PENN CENTRAL and then Amtrak started a program where the transformeres were flushed and when possible the cores removed from the metal shells and any residue was scraped out and the insides were steamed cleaned and pressure washed to remove reside that was left. for the sub stations due the the physical size of the units,they had this outfit come in and due what was called "a heat run flush". this is where the oil was drained,then clean non-PCB oil was run thru a heater and giant filter press for over 48 yrs. this was in a large 53 ft trailler with a diesel engine powering the rig. oil samples where taking every few hours after the 1st 24 to check PCB levels in ppm. when it got down to the specified level, they they would stop,and then fill the unit with the appoved high temp replacement oil. each unit was then marked with a big yellow PCB warning sticker  stating that it had PCB at 1 time and a blue sticker stating what the current ppm level was and the date it was done.

AS for the GG1's, Amtrak spent big bucks in 1980's to have 200 new driver tires cast and machined in England and then shipped to wilmington shops. they could have kept at least 25 or so running into the 1990's or later. but 2 of the reasons they changed their mind was the IDIOT IDEA to want to go to 60 cycle power that the MORONS we had in the Engineering side of the ET dept wanted to due.the cost estimates in the late 70's was around 333+ million dollars to do this. not to mention you would have to run the 2 systems side by side until it was completed. and then you go and tell SEPTA and NJ TRANIST to scrap all their Mu cars because they won't run on 60 cycle power. Yeh that went over like a FART in Church.!!!! (not to mention the resulting clean up of all oil soaked substations grounds etc. hell the entire coriider could have been designated a SUPERFUND CLEANUP SITE IF THAT HAD HAPPENED !)

but the bigger reason was that our bosses in the ET dept and other idiot higher ups were RIPPING CONRAIL off for electrical charges and repair costs for their use of their G's and to keep their frieght lines hot! (the E44's-E33's and the old NH EP5'swere maintained at Enola unless major electrical work was needed) once they found this out they demeanded refunds and Amtrak said " tough,you don't like it don't run electrics! "  (now you just removed the maintence & cleanup liability for about 15 substations without knowing it )            so guess what??? they killed their side in late 1982-83 and inside of 2yrs they started cutting down the wires that had been up all those years. and putting the scrap money into thier op budget . and the Idiots at AMTRAK loss a large lot of income due to greed and stupidity. now we buy equipment with a expecfted life span of 15-20 yrs and are cheaply made.

AHHH sorry for going off course there on that rant! all the new equipent we have in the locos,acela's and in the sub stations now use very modern and SAFE silcon compound oils to keep them cool. ther are still some transformers left on the system in obscure locations and in the bowels of some of the larger stations but they are being removed as money becomes advailable. as for the shops and areas where all the old eguipment was serviced, most have been clean up,soil capped with membranes and more soil. places like Paoli were simply bulldozedand capped and covered. i hear they are going to build a mall on the property in the future. and for the Reading,New Haven,the old Milwaukee road, don't have any info or a clue to how they handled thier PCB issues.Hell i won;t doubt if no one even knows about the old shops and what,if any was done to clean them up!

mike

  • Member since
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  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, June 21, 2010 8:00 PM

ndbprr
PCBS do not go back that far Poly Chlorinated Bisphenols were hailed when.introduced in the early 60's since they disipated heat better than any other material. Declared as a hazardous and carcinogenic material by the EPA they became a liability. Unfortunately our government has a long and perfect record of banning materials that work when.used in an.intended manner and do not cause problems when used properly.

As far as I know that year is correct but did not transformer users either drain the old oil for PCBs or at least add PCB oil when replinishing needed? Prroblem was once in a transformer could not be easily diluted and removed?

 

  • Member since
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Posted by ndbprr on Monday, June 21, 2010 7:20 PM
PCBS do not go back that far Poly Chlorinated Bisphenols were hailed when.introduced in the early 60's since they disipated heat better than any other material. Declared as a hazardous and carcinogenic material by the EPA they became a liability. Unfortunately our government has a long and perfect record of banning materials that work when.used in an.intended manner and do not cause problems when used properly.
  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, June 18, 2010 12:51 PM

PCB transformers in GG-1s were just one reason for the retirement of the GG-1s by Amtrak. Another was Asbestos. There were other reasons.

Now because of the very long life of transformers ocassionally Amtrak is having to retire some PRR installed PCB cooled CAT and distribution transformers as they ocassionaly begin to leak or have other problems such as a flashover. A more important reason to replace all the Amtrak transformers is that modern transformers are 99+% efficient and also the need to buy dual frequency transformers for the eventual conversion to 60 Hz from 25Hz. (don't hold your breath).  

PCB oil is very hard to neutralize so disposal is very costly.My local town has many PCB home transformers and the cost to dispose of one costs more than a new dual voltage transformer. (approximately $400+) 

  • Member since
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  • From: NW Wisconsin
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Posted by beaulieu on Friday, June 18, 2010 12:30 PM

seanm

 

Hi all,

I've been reading about the environmetnla impact of PCBs for work, and it got me thinking about all the PCB transformers used on the old electric trains suchas the GG1's - anybody know how common they were?  would they have run trains with PCB transformers on the New York-New Haven electric lines back then?

 

Yes every electric locomotive used on the AC electrification system and every powered EMU would have had a transformer filled with oil containing PCBs. The lower voltage DC operations did not require transformer or other oil cooled equipment (various lines using third-rail into GCT).

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • 2 posts
Question about the old PCB/Askarel transformers from the 30s/40s
Posted by seanm on Friday, June 18, 2010 10:32 AM

 

Hi all,

I've been reading about the environmetnla impact of PCBs for work, and it got me thinking about all the PCB transformers used on the old electric trains suchas the GG1's - anybody know how common they were?  would they have run trains with PCB transformers on the New York-New Haven electric lines back then?

 

 

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