Diesel Exhaust Fluid

[broncoman]

Hey all,

Has anyone heard if any railroads or any of the loco builders are going to use DEF in upcoming models or have some sort of retrofit product in conjunction with a DPF to lower emissions to meet the new standards? 

Thanks.

[samfp1943]

We have delved into this suybject before, but for those of us not emersed in diesel engine technology, and the new wave of Federal regulatory intrusion into this area of large diesel engion emitions; here is a link from the trucking industry magazine Fleet Owner  which might provide a sort of primer on this topic:

http://fleetowner.com/management/feature/scr_egr_0701/

There is much more to be learned about the various additives available to control diesel engine emitions, and one can read that as added expenses to the owners of those engines. My guess is that those added expenses will ultimated passed up the distribution chain to the consumer of the goods effected.

There is much more to be learned from info already on the web, so I recomend searches by those interested to find that information.

[edbenton]

Here is a link to what can happen when a DPF fails and the Regens are not working right also.  http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/trucks-eighteen-wheelers/106994-cascadia-regen-nightmare.html 

[broncoman]

I have seen articles on over the road stuff, but when I did a search with DEF and locomotives I didn't find much.  The science behind it seems sound as long as things hold together.  Getting tired of going on road calls to rescue trucks with packed DPFs or bad sensors causing a shutdown thinking the DPF is packed.  It would seem in a locomotive situation it would be a good solution, much better than a DPF alone.  Where there any other posts either here or in the general heading that anyone remembers?

Dave

[edbenton]

The Fluid based tratment using DPF with them just came out in the 2010 units for OTR and the drivers HATE THEM.  Having the SAME issues as the earlier ones with justs a DPF.  However the Fluid Freezes at a high temp smells worse than a HOG FARM and requires a separate tank and plumbing and metering system.  It is for every 10 gallons of Diesel one gallon of UREA fluid.  Now wereon a Locomotive are you going to find a spot for a DPF large enough for a 500 gallon tank of HOG PEE and that is basically what this stuff is and then hook up a DPF filter to the engine that WILL NOT REQUIRE A STANDING REGEN at times where the engine SMOKES MORE THAN A ALCO LOCOMOTIVE WITH A BLOWN TURBO.

[broncoman]

I was hoping that it might have worked a little better.  We just received 2 Petes with a PACCAR (Cummins) in it.  The Cummins tech guy was saying it was about 1-3% on the mixture.  It would stink (no pun intended) if that turned out to be 10% instead.  It is amazing how bad an engine can be running with a DPF and produce no smoke though.

[tdmidget]

 Paccar engines are DAF ( a Dutch company) designs, not Cummins

[tdmidget]

 Urea ia produced from ammonia and carbon dioxide, usually in oil refinerys, not hogs or any orther animal. The resemblence of the words "urea" and "urine" is coincidental.

[Paul Milenkovic]

Urea may be a chemical product, but isn't a precursor to that "animal product", so I can imagine (visualize? smell-u-lize?) that there could be some strong odors of running it through an engine to effect emissions cleanup.

I actually think this is a good thread to get into technical detail, I love technical detail, but can someone help out a poor "civilian" on this one?  I can't tell a DPF from a DAF from a ?

[edbenton]

Animals also excrete UREA as UREA in Urine.  It is easier to refine that into Diesel Exhaust Fluid than using Oil based ones.  See the ones from Animals are less likely to Explode at 1600 Degrees since they are Water Based instead of Oil based.  Nice thing to have is a Smelly tank on board that prevents you from burning your truck to the ground.  Also DEF freezes at 40 slushes up at 55 so they have to keep it WARM.  All DEF's are like this they have found.  So imagine a warm tank of UREA in a locomotive that springs a leak would put the Toilet to Shame for SMELL.

[broncoman]

Hey Ed,

      Thanks for the info but these are class 7 trucks.  The engines were grey ISC's.  The only reason I would go out on a limb is that it was a Cummins rep who came out to show us the highlights of the system.

 Here is some info.

http://www.paccar.com/newsreleases/article_news.asp?file=1996 

 

[aegrotatio]

 It's only a matter of time before the Bluetec urea solution is available everywhere.  Just like we panicked when the government outlawed R11 and then R22, you can now buy the workalikes at Wal-Mart.  I see this happening for Bluetec urea.

Oh, and it doesn't smell like urine.  Your sweat has urea in it--does your sweat smell like urine?

 

 

[beaulieu]

Urea is a major feedstock for the fertilizer industry, CP used to run unit trains of Urea from Canada to a fertilizer facility in Waterloo, IA. I don't know where they buy their Urea now. Dry Urea is odorless, but when you dissolve it in water it releases Ammonia which creates the smell, and its highly soluable. Urea is used to put the Nitrogen in fertilizer. Potash supplies the Potassium, and Super- or Triple Phosphate supplies the Phosphorus. Those are the three major nutrients plants need to grow.

[tdmidget]

A class 7 truck with a 6 liter engine sounds like a real weeny. 

Ed benton, my old man used to say " never argue with someone you have to educate first" .

[edbenton]

Correct on that one. 

[broncoman]

 ISC is an 8 liter...ISB is 6.  Not that I am arguing.