GE's hybrid locomotive No.2010

[creepycrank]

An awful lot of silence from GE publicity about the impending introduction of their hybrid locomotive in 2010. That's why the prototype was numbered 2010. I think that the problem maybe that they use a molten salt, specifically sodium-nickel-chlorine. The problem is that to use the battery it must be kept molten at over 400 deg F. Not the kind of stuff you want sloshing around in the event of a wreck it's a great idea except for the hazard this type of battery represents. GE is very busy building a factory to build this type of battery that will most likely be used for storing energy produced by windmills they also build and the energy can be released using, inverter, transformers and other switch gear from their primary business unit.

[oltmannd]

creepycrank

The problem is that to use the battery it must be kept molten at over 400 deg F. Not the kind of stuff you want sloshing around in the event of a wreck

...might be safer than steam..... I guess the devil in in the details of the packaging.

[BNSFwatcher]

I haven't heard a thingie about it.  I sure hope they don't unleash a lot of enviro-loons, in Chebby "Volts", with really hot Na-Ni-Cl batteries, on our highways!  Wow!  An EMT's nightmare!

The windmill thing sounds interesting.  So far, windmills are an ugly eco-disaster, the "eco" part being "economic", but don't tell all the dead birds that!

The sooner GE gets rid of NBC and MSNBC, the sooner I will love them again!  Back to basics, and I don't mean financial shenannigans and broadcasting drivel.  Ah!  Loved those old Aloc-GE's.  Straight GE's, too.

Hays

[carnej1]

BNSFwatcher

I haven't heard a thingie about it.  I sure hope they don't unleash a lot of enviro-loons, in Chebby "Volts", with really hot Na-Ni-Cl batteries, on our highways!  Wow!  An EMT's nightmare!

The windmill thing sounds interesting.  So far, windmills are an ugly eco-disaster, the "eco" part being "economic", but don't tell all the dead birds that!

The sooner GE gets rid of NBC and MSNBC, the sooner I will love them again!  Back to basics, and I don't mean financial shenannigans and broadcasting drivel.  Ah!  Loved those old Aloc-GE's.  Straight GE's, too.

Hays

Maybe GE can spin their rail transportation systems division off to Rupert Murdoch, bet that would put a smile on your face..

[Lyon_Wonder]

 I wonder if a hybrid GE loco would come at a price-premium that’s more expensive than even an ES44AC?  Maybe GE’s keeping quiet since they don’t want their hybrid loco to be a flop.  And from what I’ve heard, Railpower’s Green Goat hybrid had problems and seems to have been overtaken by gensets.

[samfp1943]

Found this story in Railway Gazette about GE's project for production of batteries for heavy transportation uses that maybe of interest here in this Forum:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/ge-plant-to-commercialise-hybrid-loco-batteries/browse/1.html(

Here is an excerpt from the Railway Gazette article):

"...GE has invested more than $150m developing battery technologies, including a high energy density sodium-based battery. The first application will be the Evolution Hybrid locomotive, which uses batteries to recover braking energy. A demonstrator was unveiled in May 2007, and commercial production is planned for 2010..."

[BNSFwatcher]

Murdoch?  No.  But I will suggest it to Warren Buffett at our annual Berkshire Hathaway Shareholder's Meeting in May.  Thanks for the idea.  I don't like "Smileys", but one would be appropriate here.

Hays

[creepycrank]

Lyon_Wonder

 I wonder if a hybrid GE loco would come at a price-premium that’s more expensive than even an ES44AC?  Maybe GE’s keeping quiet since they don’t want their hybrid loco to be a flop.  And from what I’ve heard, Railpower’s Green Goat hybrid had problems and seems to have been overtaken by gensets.

The Green Goat was equipped with conventional lead acid batteries probably not really suited to hard switching service, however, most of them are supposed to be in service. I wonder what happened to submarine batteries. The other battery locomotive out there is Norfolk Southern' creation with an enormous amount of conventional truck batteries. Has anyone heard how its operating? Probably parked after they got all there greenie points and maybe a little data. The GE molten salt battery along with the flow battery show a great deal of potential for peak shaving service in the more remote areas of power distribution. The good thing about it is the very high energy density. The bad thing is its not suitable for mobile sources. The power load varies greatly throughout the day in a predictable manor and the batteries can be charged in the period of lowest demand in the middle of the night and discharged through a inverter during peak demand. Wartsila just signed a contract for a 170 megawatt engine plant to supplement the large Texas wind farm when the wind isn't blowing. I think that the wind farm idea will eventually prove to be an expensive mistake.

[oltmannd]

creepycrank

The other battery locomotive out there is Norfolk Southern' creation with an enormous amount of conventional truck batteries. Has anyone heard how its operating? Probably parked after they got all there greenie points and maybe a little data.

Apparently it is doing OK.  See second half of this http://www.railwayage.com/from-the-editor/from-the-editor-how-far-can-8-billion-go-ask-amtrak.html

 

[tacitdreamer]

Hello, it's been quite a while since the last time I posted here, my old screen name was jruppert.  I chose a new screen name, maybe to be a little more private and to show a little personality. 

 Anyhow, I have never heard of molten salt batteries, so I am compelled to go find out some more about them.

 I can't help but remember a guy I used to visit with who worked in a battery shop around the corner from where I once worked.  He was near retirement, and explained to me that because of years of accumulation of toxins in his body that he could not walk past a line on the floor of the shop.

I have read the promises of great cost savings in advertizing and whatever else concerning battery powered locomotives, but have never seen any estimate of the costs of maintaining a large fleet of batteries, or the expected environmental impact. 

 I imagine ordinary salt would be pretty safe assuming it is not somehow contaminated by its use in a battery; and economical if it doesn't have to be replaced often.

There is probably some economy of scale in the cost of maintaining the high temperatures necessary versus the benefit of an efficient battery.  This is probably what supports the common use of molten salt baths for surface hardening of metal parts.

A major drawback to wind power is that as its portion of production grows, it becomes more costly for existing infrastructure to manage.  This forces increases in the access rates to the grid for wind producers.  This is what has happened in Oregon.

[carnej1]

creepycrank

Lyon_Wonder

 I wonder if a hybrid GE loco would come at a price-premium that’s more expensive than even an ES44AC?  Maybe GE’s keeping quiet since they don’t want their hybrid loco to be a flop.  And from what I’ve heard, Railpower’s Green Goat hybrid had problems and seems to have been overtaken by gensets.

The Green Goat was equipped with conventional lead acid batteries probably not really suited to hard switching service, however, most of them are supposed to be in service. I wonder what happened to submarine batteries. The other battery locomotive out there is Norfolk Southern' creation with an enormous amount of conventional truck batteries. Has anyone heard how its operating? Probably parked after they got all there greenie points and maybe a little data. The GE molten salt battery along with the flow battery show a great deal of potential for peak shaving service in the more remote areas of power distribution. The good thing about it is the very high energy density. The bad thing is its not suitable for mobile sources. The power load varies greatly throughout the day in a predictable manor and the batteries can be charged in the period of lowest demand in the middle of the night and discharged through a inverter during peak demand. Wartsila just signed a contract for a 170 megawatt engine plant to supplement the large Texas wind farm when the wind isn't blowing. I think that the wind farm idea will eventually prove to be an expensive mistake.

Given that most countries in the world that operate submarine still use Diesel electrics (though not the US and UK) that technology is still very much viable . There are also a number of mining operations that use off road diesel electric trucks with battery energy recovery systems and I have not read of these having the problems the Green Goats did...

[BNSFwatcher]

R. J. Corman bought "Railpower".  See www.rjcorman.com .  Corman seems to be a very smart operator and businessman.  Maybe goats have 'nine lives', too.  Go to Kentucky and see his demos.  Report back, for extra credit.

Hays

 

[carnej1]

BNSFwatcher

R. J. Corman bought "Railpower".  See www.rjcorman.com .  Corman seems to be a very smart operator and businessman.  Maybe goats have 'nine lives', too.  Go to Kentucky and see his demos.  Report back, for extra credit.

Hays

 

There was a recent article about that in TRAINS where an RJC official stated that they would only be offering Gensets in the catalog for right now, although he stated that they weren't ruling out building Green goats in the future..

[blue streak 1]

Question:  With all these various off shoots ... Are they well suited for switching asuming they load very fast?  Anyone on here that has operated any and do you like how they switch ?