Just to confuse you more, check out the NYNH&H (New Haven) FL-9s. They were single engined Diesels, riding on B+A-1-A trucks, and were capable of operating on NYC's 600+ v. under-running third rail into Grand Central Terminal, sans Diesel. They had steam boilers, and the extra water tanks that all of the FP's had. I don't know if any are still running for Metro-North. M-NR did paint a pair in New York Central "Lightning Stripes" (really cool!) and Connecticut DOT painted them in the old New Haven "McGuiness" as-delivered scheme, after inheriting them from Penn Central (black) and Conrail (blue-and-yellow [Yuck!]). They did "yoeman's service" on all M-N mains and branches.
MJChittick wjstix As I said in my full post, yes you could get a steam generator in an F unit A, but IIRC it was fairly small and limited in water capacity. Since it was rare for a railroad to buy F units by themselves - most railroads bought A-B sets with drawbars and gave them the same road number, many combined them into four unit A-B-B-A sets with the same road number, so it was easier just to put the boilers in the available room in the B units. Your above comment regarding drawbars is only applicable to the FT model; not the post WWII models. According to the "Second Diesel Spotters Guide", many F3s, F7s and F9s (both A and B units) were purchased with steam generators although specific numbers are not given.
wjstix As I said in my full post, yes you could get a steam generator in an F unit A, but IIRC it was fairly small and limited in water capacity. Since it was rare for a railroad to buy F units by themselves - most railroads bought A-B sets with drawbars and gave them the same road number, many combined them into four unit A-B-B-A sets with the same road number, so it was easier just to put the boilers in the available room in the B units.
As I said in my full post, yes you could get a steam generator in an F unit A, but IIRC it was fairly small and limited in water capacity. Since it was rare for a railroad to buy F units by themselves - most railroads bought A-B sets with drawbars and gave them the same road number, many combined them into four unit A-B-B-A sets with the same road number, so it was easier just to put the boilers in the available room in the B units.
Your above comment regarding drawbars is only applicable to the FT model; not the post WWII models. According to the "Second Diesel Spotters Guide", many F3s, F7s and F9s (both A and B units) were purchased with steam generators although specific numbers are not given.
Yes, FTs were designed to only operate as A-B or A-A sets with drawbars in between. EMD had to gerry-rig a coupler for Santa Fe and some other railroads that wanted couplers between the A and B units. Later Fs were set up to be able to use couplers, but it wasn't that unusual for railroads to buy later F units with drawbars between the A and B units...although in many cases the railroads that did so later retrofit couplers to allow the A and B units to "mix and match".
A big issue was the RR unions, whose contract rules said that you had to have one engineer and one fireman for each "locomotive". They argued that two diesels coupled together, like an A and B F-unit set, were in fact two "locomotives" doubleheading, so each required a crew. By connecting the units with a drawbar and giving them the same number (like "1400A" and "1400B") the railroads were able to say that it was one locomotive - the same way that a 2-8-8-2 Mallet was one locomotive even though it had two separate sets of driving wheels.
Once the unions agreed to allow one crew for each mu'ed set of diesels (around 1950 IIRC) the railroads often removed the drawbars and installed couplers.
From the E9 operators manual:
Steam Generator Water Capacity, Basic 1,350 gaL. With Hatch Tank 1,950 gaL.
Fuel capy 1200 gals.
From the F9, FP9, FL9 manual (1957):
Steam Generator Water Capacity (if used):
Vertical Tank - FP9A Unit ............ 820 gal.
F9B Unit ............ 1,200 gal.
FL9A Unit ............ 1,920 gal.
Hatch Tank - FP9A Unit ............ 330 gal.
FL9A Unit ............ 330 gal.
(Without dynamic brakes, all units may
have an additional 600 gal. hatch tank)
Tank Under 2750 lb. Steam Generator ... 200 gal.
Fuel capy was 1200 gals with or without steam gen.
Mike
Railroads tended to buy units together as if they were buying one steam engine for specific jobs..."we need four A-B sets to handle this run, and six A-B-A sets for our mainline runs, and four A-B-B-A engines for our mountain division trains"...the concept of buying a number of engines and mix-and-matching them as needed didn't come along until about the time of the GP7 in 1949-50.
timz Could steam generators fit into F3A-F7A-F9As?
Could steam generators fit into F3A-F7A-F9As?
Yes they did fit and were a factory-installed option in many F3As, F7As and F9As
The Genarators could and did fit in the A units however the Unit had a very small fuel tank if that was the case. Think about it Fuel for the Prime Mover plus water for the Steam Genarator. That is why the Santa FE did it the way they did with the B units having the Genarator however the A unit carried a water tank on them. Yes it was wasteful in later years having to need 2 f's on a branchline train however you still had a reserve unit if you lost one.
carnej1the whole F series was designed from the outset with the option of being equipped with steam generators.
wjstixonly the B units had steam
E-series locomotives started in the 1930's as passenger engines, with as noted two three-axle trucks where the outside axles were powered and the inside one was an unpowered idler. They had room inside for two motors (E standing for the early models having two 900 HP engines creating Eighteen hundred horsepower) and a boiler / steam generator for car heating (which was provided by steam from the passenger steam engine before that). They were speedsters on flat land, but had difficulties climbing grades so were generally not used in mountainous territory.
F-series engines started with the FT in 1939-40 and were much shorter engines with two two-axle trucks, each axle powered. Generally steam boilers were an option only in the B units (the units without cabs) because it was difficult (though not quite impossible) to fit one in an A unit by itself. They worked better climbing grades, so railroads that had mountain districts like Great Northern, Santa Fe, etc. preferred F's for their passenger trains that went thru mountainous areas.
The FP-7 and FP-9 were basically F-7 and F-9 engines that were elongated by several feet to allow room for a steam boiler / generator in them. This had two purposes or uses.
One, it allowed railroads to run short passenger trains with just one FP unit and still provide steam for the cars. Otherwise, they would have to use an A-B set of F units to pull even a 3-4 car train because only the B units had steam...even though the horsepower of one unit was more than enough to actually pull the train.
Two, it allowed northern railroads like Canadian Pacific, Northern Pacific, to have more steam heat available. Previously in say an A-B-B-A set of F's, only the two B units would have steam boilers. Now you could have steam coming from all four - a plus during very cold weather and very long trains.
If you saw side shots of both locomotives you would see vast differences in them. I suggest you purchase a copy of Klambach's Diesel Spotters Guide which is an excellent reference and allows one to determine virtually every diesel ever sold in the USA. Before I bought mine it was all Greek to me. It answers about 90% or more of all diesel ID questions
trainfan1221 The E8 was a passenger locomotive, the FP9 was essentially a freight unit redesigned for passenger service, with a steam generator added for lighting. Accomodating this is what made for the longer room.
The E8 was a passenger locomotive, the FP9 was essentially a freight unit redesigned for passenger service, with a steam generator added for lighting. Accomodating this is what made for the longer room.
The steam generator provided steam for heating and in some cases cooling; not electrical power.
Although the FT was first marketed as a freight locomotive there were many thousands of F units purchased and equipped as passenger (or dual service) locomotives,the whole F series was designed from the outset with the option of being equipped with steam generators. the majority of F9's were in fact built as passenger power...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The length, weight, HP, number of motors and options are just a few differences. The E series had two diesels motors, two generators, A1A trucks and were much longer than the FP9. The E8 is 70' 3" long. The FP9 is 54' long. Just a few things,
The E series also had the front number boards inside unlike the F series which had the number boards mounted on the outside. The nose shape is the same but not much else.
CZ
This is the E9A from the CSRM.
This is the F7A, which is four feet shorter than the FP9.
There are numerous differences, but perhaps the most significant differences are number of prime movers (2 in the E, 1 in the F), and wheel arrangement (A1A-A1A in the E, B-B in the FP)
I suggest that you order MR's diesel locomotive 'cyclopedia:
http://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroader-Cyclopedia-Diesel-Locomotives/dp/0890245479#noop
I just want to know what the difference is between the two locos. Is it just hp. or more? rambo1........
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