Yes, EMD has a prototype SD40-2 equipped with the 12-cylinder 710G3C diesel testing. They also have a 8-cylinder version for GP38s and GP40 rebuilding to GP22s. EMD calls the program 710ECO series.
Rebuilding of SD40's with upgraded 645 engines is probably unlikely because of environmental requirements, among other things.
GMS-AUI am aware of the EMD 710ECO GP7 or GP22 that is doing the rounds, and I don't think anyone is racing to do it, as the old 645 engine is so cheap to rebuild that the cost of conversion is not economical. Now fuel prices have dropped and the recession is upon us I presume any sort of rebuild is cancelled. Rebuilding a road unit of SD40 size may have been more worth the effort, at least until the current recession . GMS
See here for the KCS program, it doesn't have hardly any details, though
KCS Repowering
I am not sure if it is even the engine as much as the fact that these older locomotives might just be considered outdated in the modern, wide cab era. It would be nice to think that the SD40 type will be around for a long time but technology has advanced enough that even these one time top of the line units might not have a place in the modern rail scene. Or at least not in mainline service, though I personally would like to see them still around doing this.
IIRC isn't by 2010 that all reman or new locomotives have to meet Teir 2 Emisson levels. If that is the case then the 645 prime mover is OUT you have no choice but to reengine with the new 710 series that EMD is coming out with or if it is a GE the new GEVO series engine to meet Emission Standards or see if someone will come out with an aftermarket catalytic converter that will allow you to meet those stnadards yet meet the maintance standards of the RR's not an easy task. Why do you think the OTR trucking industry is hurting so bad right now they have had so much crap thrown at them emisson wise YET CARB wants MORE aka RETROFIT all the reefer units in the NATION and all the pre 2008 trucks by 2010 at a cost of 15 billion bucks that plus mandating areo skirting on all trailers that even MIGHT GO INTO CA at a cost of 2 BILLION MORE. The fuel savings on the skirts is only 50 million over 10 years and the maintance costs are 100 million more this YET CARB IS NOT LISTENING TO THE INDUSTRY THEY ARE GOING TO KILL.
I'm not so sure there isn't a retrofit Tier II kit for lcomotives with 645E3. I'd guess injectors and split cooling would do it. The split cooling would take some plumbing though.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
It goes deep into the amount of emissions that the engine produce as in PPM of NOX and CO CO2 unburned fuel and other stuff. Put it to you this way there is NOT ONE pre 2008 engine design LEFT in the OTR industry out there. the 60 Series RETIRED and replaced the 3406 cat retired replaced witht ehACERT the N-14 cummions replaced with the Sig line all of which are part eaters. The heavy truck engine manufacturs tried to do it with the Europe lines and found out something what worked over there SURE AS HELL DOES NOT WORK OVER HERE.
The latest reports I heard stated that the 645 was not going to meet the next round of emissons at all regarless of WHAT they did to it. So the MP36 was being modified to accept the 710 series prime mover instead of the 645.
edbentonThe latest reports I heard stated that the 645 was not going to meet the next round of emissons at all regarless of WHAT they did to it. So the MP36 was being modified to accept the 710 series prime mover instead of the 645.
Tier III is not going to be that bad, the diesel will have to run on Ultra-low Sulphur Diesel, and there is a requirement for some upgrading from older standards. Tier IV will be the next big change.
Think of Tier 3 as the 2004 OTR diesel Emission standard yeah not to hard to meet. However Tier 4 is going to hit them HARDER THAN A SLEDEHAMMER TO A CERTAIN PORTAIN OF THE MALE ANATOMY. Ask any person that works in the OTR trucking indusrty how bad the 2008 Emisson Engines are on Fuel Economy and Reliabilty and you will here they are all nothing but a POS. 2010 standards ARE TEH RESON WHY CAT IS LEAVING THE OTR INDUSTRY PERIOD they are sick and tired of being told that these new regs are better for the enviroment whn the older engines got 2X the fuel economy and also smoked less than a ALCO 424 did with a BLOWN TURBO when they are going thru a forced regenaration of their Diesel Particulate Filters. CAT did a test with some of their old engines they actually produce LESS emissons on the ULSF than the new ones are with the current issuee YET THE CARB Board of California and the EPA refuse to admit they are wrong because their ENGINEERS SAY THAT THEY SHOULD BE BETTER THAN THE OLD ONES. Have fun when the new standards hit the RR's.
Just to add I asked a friend of mine that is an engineer for CAT in their engine devolpment department he is one of the guys that has to come up with the crap that has to help the engines meet the standards that EPA throws at them. They took a 645 and 710 since they do compete with them in the marine industry and wanted to see if they could be made to MEET the tier 3 and 4 emisson standards the 645 failed at 3 and 4 the 710 barely made 3 by leaning her out so much she had issues with with reliabliaty at full power and could not be made to meet 4 even with intercooling and every trick cat tried. Simply put there is no way you can make a 2 stroke meet the future standards coming up. The era of the 2 stroke is done very soon.
edbentonJust to add I asked a friend of mine that is an engineer for CAT in their engine devolpment department he is one of the guys that has to come up with the crap that has to help the engines meet the standards that EPA throws at them. They took a 645 and 710 since they do compete with them in the marine industry and wanted to see if they could be made to MEET the tier 3 and 4 emisson standards the 645 failed at 3 and 4 the 710 barely made 3 by leaning her out so much she had issues with with reliabliaty at full power and could not be made to meet 4 even with intercooling and every trick cat tried. Simply put there is no way you can make a 2 stroke meet the future standards coming up. The era of the 2 stroke is done very soon.
EMD still has the 265H up their sleeves, despite disappointment with the SD90MAC. Maybe sometime in the next several years EMD will be coming out with a SD89ACe.
Democrats tell us "Big Business" is an evil accolyte of the Republicans. Yet GE is fully on board with Obama and the "Climate Change" hysteria. (Did you notice it's not "Global Warming" anymore...either colder or warmer, its just bad and its all YOUR fault, you ugly Americans!)
GE loves "Climate Change." It will allow them to replace every old loco, powerplant, and light bulb with a brand new GEVO/hybrid, GE Windmill, GE reactor, or GE flouresant light bulb, all at a substantialy higher price than what they replace.
Big Business loves Big Government. Small business is killed by Big Governement. Bye-Bye short lines, bye-bye Mom and Pop truckers. And I'll make a gentleman's bet...bye-bye EMD road switchers.
I have read recently (in TRAINS) that UP is experimenting with upgraded emission control equipment on an MP15. I know it includes a particle emissions filter system and some sort of additional exhaust treatment adapted from industrial/marine apllication. IIRC, they were trying to meet Tier III compliance..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
nody Democrats tell us "Big Business" is an evil accolyte of the Republicans. Yet GE is fully on board with Obama and the "Climate Change" hysteria. (Did you notice it's not "Global Warming" anymore...either colder or warmer, its just bad and its all YOUR fault, you ugly Americans!) GE loves "Climate Change." It will allow them to replace every old loco, powerplant, and light bulb with a brand new GEVO/hybrid, GE Windmill, GE reactor, or GE flouresant light bulb, all at a substantialy higher price than what they replace. Big Business loves Big Government. Small business is killed by Big Governement. Bye-Bye short lines, bye-bye Mom and Pop truckers. And I'll make a gentleman's bet...bye-bye EMD road switchers.
Of course EMD would love to sell as many 710 ECO repowering packages as they can as well, so there will still be Geeps about...that sort of regulatory requirement is obv. much harder on smaller operators.
GMS-AUInteresting that CAT would be looking at EMD engines, but not unexpected. CAT is most probably looking at buying EMD so it can expend and get into the rail business. It has already purchased the other mob but buying EMD would get them right into the business, not just the fringe where they are now. I expect looking at the EMD engines would be research to see if they are worth buying and of course if they have done something CAT couldn't do. The best way to expend market share is to buy the opposition. I am surprised the 2 stroke design has survived as long as it has, but as engines go there is nothing wrong with them, just the green movement has caught up with them. I was talking with an engineer from Detroit/Daimler/MTA at a truck show, and he said the two stroke idea could be improved, however it had been decided some time ago to go 4 stroke, hence the 60 series truck engines ( about the same time as the 60 series loco's!!!! ). Cat has gotten out of the on road truck engine business all together, so it has put emissions into the 'too hard' basket, but it will have to get into it sooner or later, as everything will have to conform. The truck industry will find it hard, but American trucks aren't built to last very long so they will be replaced quickly with newer trucks that are compliant, and the industry will settle down. The big operators will buy new and carry on and the consumer will pay for it. The rail industry being a much smaller volume industry will conform but on a slower rate, and being more efficient than road transport will be allowed to evolve slower. EMD I feel has been a victim of their own success, building locomotives that last too long and can be rebuilt cheaply, ( plus a parent suffering from it's own problems ) thus the market for new ones is small. The emissions game might help them if they get it right, as everything will have to be replaced, similar to the diesel boom that took over from steam. If they don't, will CAT take them over or will they outsource possibly to someone like Cummins, which only build engines, and has to be innovative to survive. GMS
GM of course sold EMD before it got into the deep muck it is in now...
CAT did try to buy EMD from GM and the labor union which represents the London, Ont. plant shot the deal down (CAT has had a history of labor problems at it's own plants, though I'm not interested in a political debate about unions).
When Greenbriar (with Berkshire Hathaway) purchased EMD their stated business plan was to improve the company and then sell it to a larger manufacturer (prob. they were thinking of CAT or BOMBARDIER) within 5-10 years.
As far as EMD being a "victim of their own success" I don't think that the rebuilding old units versus buying new ones conundrum is such an issue with high horsepower road locomotives, it is in secondary service and EMD has lots of competition in that market segment..
carnej1GM of course sold EMD before it got into the deep muck it is in now... CAT did try to buy EMD from GM and the labor union which represents the London, Ont. plant shot the deal down (CAT has had a history of labor problems at it's own plants, though I'm not interested in a political debate about unions). When Greenbriar (with Berkshire Hathaway) purchased EMD their stated business plan was to improve the company and then sell it to a larger manufacturer (prob. they were thinking of CAT or BOMBARDIER) within 5-10 years. As far as EMD being a "victim of their own success" I don't think that the rebuilding old units versus buying new ones conundrum is such an issue with high horsepower road locomotives, it is in secondary service and EMD has lots of competition in that market segment..
Careful don't confuse Berkshire Partners, with Berkshire Hathaway, they are two different groups. It is Berkshire Partners that is one of the owners of EMD, not Berkshire Hathaway (Buffet).
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