Alternitave Fuels (has this been asked yet?)

[Andrew Falconer]

Thank You. 

It is much better to have solid information about fuel instead of wild speculations.

Andrew

[ndbprr]

Fuel combustion can be very complicated.  The basic reaction is not.  The carbon forms with oxygen to make carbon dioxide and the hydrogen forms with oxygen to make water.  All fuels are in a class called hydrocarbons.  The ratio of carbon to hydrogen has an effect on the amount of oxygen required as do various nonburning components like sulfur and nitrogen which rob oxygen to form SOx and NOx pollutants.  Incomplete combustion happens all the time and can't be avoided so you also get some carbon monoxide formed.  I am heavily involved currently with firing industrial furnaces and boilers with pure oxygen.  Everyday I get the BTU content of the naturalgas we are using in testing to four decimal places to regulate the balance between oxygen and fuel.  Throw a match on a wood pile and you have combustion.  Using a combustion of fuel is much more complicated and why your car now has a computer to regulate fuel and air instead of a carburaetor

[Andrew Falconer]

What we need to find on the web are the chemical equations of Fuel Combustion.

How complicated is fuel combustion, really?

How hard is it to make the basic elements of fuel?

Andrew

[trainfan1221]

They like to be accommadating, helps them to compete.  Wendy's might be open late but they don't serve trains in their drive-thru!

[Flashwave]

A number of pracitical issues come up rather quickly though.  Can you see this exchange:

Dispatacher - "You have the 1293, 3278 and the 2489 today with 1400 tons"

Engineer - "what fuel do I have?"

Dipatcher - " Burger King frying oil"

Engineer - "what is the BTU content"

Dipatcher ".8 that of #2 diesel"

Engineer - "how does that affect tonnage?"

Dispatcher - "how should I know"

nine hours later

"Dispatch this is 1293 westbound"

"Go ahead 1293"

"We are running low on Burger King frying oil.  Where do I refuel this engine?'

Dispatch, "Beats me".

To quote their one time advertising slogan from the past.."You go to Burger King!"

There was a picture from a street-running article that made an eninge look like it was sitting in a McDonald's Drive-thru

[oltmannd]

My question is both on and at the same time, do railroads use off road diesel.

Yes

[trainfan1221]

A number of pracitical issues come up rather quickly though.  Can you see this exchange:

Dispatacher - "You have the 1293, 3278 and the 2489 today with 1400 tons"

Engineer - "what fuel do I have?"

Dipatcher - " Burger King frying oil"

Engineer - "what is the BTU content"

Dipatcher ".8 that of #2 diesel"

Engineer - "how does that affect tonnage?"

Dispatcher - "how should I know"

nine hours later

"Dispatch this is 1293 westbound"

"Go ahead 1293"

"We are running low on Burger King frying oil.  Where do I refuel this engine?'

Dispatch, "Beats me".

To quote their one time advertising slogan from the past.."You go to Burger King!"

[WM7471]

IIRC I read a few years ago that the Sierra Railroad in California was experimenting with using B-20 (20% Bio, 80% standard diesel) mix in some of it's diesel switchers.  I seem to remember that the source of the bio was used fryer oil.  I do not know if they are still using Bio-diesel or if they considered the experiment successful.

[ndbprr]

A number of pracitical issues come up rather quickly though.  Can you see this exchange:

Dispatacher - "You have the 1293, 3278 and the 2489 today with 1400 tons"

Engineer - "what fuel do I have?"

Dipatcher - " Burger King frying oil"

Engineer - "what is the BTU content"

Dipatcher ".8 that of #2 diesel"

Engineer - "how does that affect tonnage?"

Dispatcher - "how should I know"

nine hours later

"Dispatch this is 1293 westbound"

"Go ahead 1293"

"We are running low on Burger King frying oil.  Where do I refuel this engine?'

Dispatch, "Beats me".

[Flashwave]

Sounds familiar from the Museum trains, but that;s a tad smaller than the Class 1s

[Been Nothing Since Frisco (BNSF)]

Give me the whole scoop.

Ok, here ya go.

 

[Been Nothing Since Frisco (BNSF)]

My question is both on and at the same time, do railroads use off road diesel. (If your wondering what that is its diesel thats doesn't have tax on it but it has a red dye in it,the dye doesn't hurt the motor, but if you run it in a truck on a public hiway then you get a big fine.)

[JonathanS]

Is it feasible to run a diesel locomotive on biodiesel?  Efficiency, cost, etc.?  Give me the whole scoop.

A diesel engine can run on anything that burns and can be sent through the injector.  Diesel fuel, corn oil, powdered coal, starch, sawdust.  If it burns and is liquid or a fine enough powder that high pressure air can move it then a diesel can be made to run on it.

[trainfan1221]

Possible? yes. Feasible? NO. I have a feeling that you have been reading too many stories about delirious tree  huggers using oils and fats from restaurants( "and the exhaust smells like french fries"). If this is what you mean then no because:

1 All the used cooking oil in this country probably would not run 2 trains per day from coast to coast.

2 Used oils are not discarded, they are used to make soap and other consumer products. Are you willing to drop $5.00 for a bar of soap to feel good about saving the world?

If you mean oils produced from crops grown for this purpose the go to your supermarket and price a gallon of cooking oil. Add about $1.00 minimum in taxes and compare to the price of diesel fuel.

There are places around here that do that, haven't heard the part about the exhaust smelling like french fries though.

[beaulieu]

BN has tried RLM (Refrigerated Liquid Methane), LPG (Liquid Propane Gas), and subsidiary Los Angeles Junction Rwy. has 4 switch engines powered by CNG (Compressed Natural Gas).

[Flashwave]

GP 7s and 9s can even run on fuels 50 years into their original future. But yes, the price is MUCH higher.

[Anonymous]

You can even run them on coal.

[fredswain]

It's pretty amazing what a diesel engine CAN run on. This of course comes with alot of "buts" and "ifs" as some modern high fuel pressure engines don't like the heavier oils for reasons I'm not getting into here. If we keep the topic broad, many different things can be combusted as fuels in the diesel cycle. It doesn't mean they are all good though and doesn't mean there aren't positives and negatives. You can burn biodiesel, cooking oils, motor oils, automatic transmission fluids, and a host of other things if you do it right. However plain old diesel fuel has the highest specific energy and is the most readily available in large quantites. There's far more to it but you get the idea. CAN something else be used? Yes. That doesn't mean it will though.

[lattasnip9]

I'm not exactly proficient at this topic but I don't mean to use SVO, I mean a B10 or a B20 mix.

[tdmidget]

Possible? yes. Feasible? NO. I have a feeling that you have been reading too many stories about delirious tree  huggers using oils and fats from restaurants( "and the exhaust smells like french fries"). If this is what you mean then no because:

1 All the used cooking oil in this country probably would not run 2 trains per day from coast to coast.

2 Used oils are not discarded, they are used to make soap and other consumer products. Are you willing to drop $5.00 for a bar of soap to feel good about saving the world?

If you mean oils produced from crops grown for this purpose the go to your supermarket and price a gallon of cooking oil. Add about $1.00 minimum in taxes and compare to the price of diesel fuel.

[trainfan1221]

There was another recent discussion on these, I think on the regular trains discussion forum.  Basically yes diesels have been proven to use other types of fuel.

[lattasnip9]

Is it feasible to run a diesel locomotive on biodiesel?  Efficiency, cost, etc.?  Give me the whole scoop.