dual-powered locomotives!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BigBlueConrail]

Nj trainsit has ordered the first dual-powered locomotives!!!! What will they look like?

http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=PressReleaseTo&PRESS_RELEASE_ID=2430

[erikem]

What do you mean by "the first dual powered locomotives"????

The New Haven bought 60 FL-9's ca. 1960 and there were several dual power and tri power locomotives made ca 1930. (Tri-power meaning diesel, electric and battery.) IIRC, the UA Turbotrain had provisions for taking third rail power on the NYC trackage into Grand Central. 

[Dakguy201]

Nearly $12 million per unit?  WOW!  If an off the shelf freight locomotive is $2 mil to $3 mil new, these must be gold plated.   Or perhaps the gold is going into the retirement funds of some politicans, we are talking about New Jersey, after all. 

[beaulieu]

The fall of the US Dollar accounts for a chunk of that money. They will be built in Europe with European technology.

[steemtrayn]

Will these be the first diesels with pantographs?

[JT22CW]

No.

BBD has bitten off more than it can chew.  Such a locomotive cannot exist, especially not on four axles.  Kolluri is hanging himself with this one.

[owlsroost]

Such a locomotive cannot exist, especially not on four axles

Bit of a sweeping statement - what's the justification ?

Given that typical US passenger locos are very heavy by European standards (e.g. 288000 pounds for the NJT PL42AC - a typical Bombardier European electric loco would be around 180000 pounds) it shouldn't be impossible using modern high-speed, low-weight diesel engines e.g. the MTU (Detroit Diesel in the US) 4000 series which run up to 4000hp in the 20-cylinder version.

If space is a problem you could always go to six axles....there are proven 125mph three axle truck designs around in Europe.

 Tony

[martin.knoepfel]

Bombardier has the Traxx-family of engines. They exist in different electric versions, 1,5 or 3 kV DC, 15 kV and 25 kV AC and multi-system-versions. Even a diesel-electric is available. Perhaps, designing will base on one of these engines. However, they are not allowed to go 125 mph. And Bombardier built the ALP-46 for NJT. Perhaps, the new engines will be a six-axle-version of one of the designs mentionned. B-B-B would also be a possitility.

The word hybrid is somehow misleading. Hybrid cars have batteries to "store" electric energy. This would of course be possible with dual-powered engines, to save the energy generated by dynamic braking if the engines runs outside catenary-territoriy. The question is whether the energy-saving is worth the additional costs.

There are quite a few dual-mode engines in Europe. The British Railways had a serie of these engines for the Southern region. The Rhaetian Railways have two dual-mode-engines for the Bernina-line. They run on work or snow-plow-trains and occasionally as helpers on heavy trains. A freight railroad in one of the big inland-ports in Germany (Cologne?) has dual-mode steeple-cab-engines. They are designed to have the same tractive-power under diesel and catenary. There are many places in a port where you don't want to have catenary or third rail. 

[owlsroost]

One problem with the B-B-B arrangment is that you lose the space between the trucks to put heavy things like the transformer in an electric loco (helps keep the COG low - important in high-speed service).

The diesel version of the Traxx loco uses the 16-cylinder version of the MTU engine I mentioned above (rated at 3000hp) and weighs about 187000 pounds on 4 axles. All of the Traax family are AC drive, as has become the norm for new-build motive power in Europe.

Tony

[JonathanS]

The first dual powered????  I think Alco/GE/Ingersol Rand would have something to say about that.  As would EMD with the FL9, Baldwin with the RP210, and FM with the P12.  Also United Aircraft and Rohr might disagree as some of their products were powered by either turbines or third rail electric.  And I do not remember who built the dual powered MU for Long Island.  It also was 3rd rail or turbine.

The Russians might have something to say too.  Use this link to see the Steam-Diesel dual powered locomotives that they developed.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/russ/russrefr.htm

[martin.knoepfel]

I know the Traxx-familiy is running with AC-drive. Nevertheless, you can order a version able to run under 1,5 and/or 3 kv DC. My hypothesis is, Bombardier will use as many existing components as possible to  reduce costs. But I cannot exclude they will use trucks of the Swedish-Norwegian electric engine (C-C) or trucks of an existing US-freight-engine.

[owlsroost]

I know the Traxx-familiy is running with AC-drive. My hypothesis is, Bombardier will use as many existing components as possible to  reduce costs

I agree entirely, Martin. Basically I think Bombardier already has nearly all the 'building blocks' it needs to do this project.

I think it's more likely to run on trucks derived from a European design since there aren't any modern US designed passenger trucks around (e.g. how old is the ex-EMD Blomberg design ??) - the GE P40/P42 truck design came from Germany, and all the modern US electric locos run on European-derived trucks (as far as I know).

Tony

[JT22CW]

Such a locomotive cannot exist, especially not on four axles

Bit of a sweeping statement - what's the justification?

Given that typical US passenger locos are very heavy by European standards (e.g. 288000 pounds for the NJT PL42AC - a typical Bombardier European electric loco would be around 180000 pounds) it shouldn't be impossible using modern high-speed, low-weight diesel engines e.g. the MTU (Detroit Diesel in the US) 4000 series which run up to 4000hp in the 20-cylinder version.

If space is a problem you could always go to six axles....there are proven 125 mph three axle truck designs around in Europe.

 Tony

Here's the specs (quoted from another forum) according to Railway Age, from last year:

According to STV, today's modular locomotive designs should be able to support a dual-mode locomotive configuration within several constraints. Among these are Amtrak's tunnel clearances (the locked-down-pantograph height in the Hudson River tunnels is 14 feet 7 inches), carbody space (no more than 75 feet long), noise levels, EPA emissions compliance (Tier II, with Tier III coming up in 2010), tractive effort, and weight (Amtrak's maximum locomotive weight on the Northeast Corridor is 288,000 pounds GRL for speeds above 79 mph). The challenge for builders will be to fit a diesel power plant and an electrical transformer into one carbody within those parameters.

You're talking 20-cylinder prime movers; but the PL42AC is already up to 288,000 lbs with a 16-cylinder (those cost $4.4 million per unit, back in 2005). This proposal is equivalent to jamming an ALP-46 and a PL42AC together on the same frame, while making it shorter in height than the PL42AC. Where are we going to put all the required emissions controls plus cooling? How many axles will this really need to ride on? (FYI, A1A-A1A was never "unproven" at high speeds; certainly, locomotives like the Alco DL-109 with 120-mph gearing had no problems with hunting or suchlike).

If NJT can gather all sorts of money for such extravagant spending (last December, they found another $310 million in order to buy 27 ALP46As plus spare parts), they should have enough money to electrify the whole system and forget about "dual-power" units altogether, right? (Meanwhile, while they do this, the schedules lose more and more trains, especially on the Newark Division and on the Morris & Essex Lines going into Hoboken Terminal, all during the period of the USA's highest gasoline prices in history. NJT's priorities are very screwed up.)

[beaulieu]

It is already said that they will employ two gen-sets with either the Cummins or similar MTU/Detroit Diesel engines.

[JT22CW]

Not on the press release.  Where does your information come from?

Bombardier, furthermore, manufactures their US stuff up in La Pocatiere in Canada, not in Europe.  That's where NJT's multi-levels came from.

[owlsroost]

There is a bit more information here - http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1082507.htm

I just used the 20-cylinder MTU engine as an example - it's available in V8, V12 & V16 configurations as well, and the V16 is less than 10 tons dry weight.

I guess that splitting the diesel power between two gensets might be to help the weight distribution e.g. a genset at each end of the loco with the transformer low down in the center. That way the electrical equipment could be concentrated in the center, with the 'dirty' diesel stuff in separate compartments at each end.

At least some of the ALP46 electrics were built in Germany, and all of the new ALP46A order is to be built there (it makes sense since they are basically Americanised versions of the Traxx design which is produced in volume at the same factory).

Tony

[owlsroost]

they should have enough money to electrify the whole system and forget about "dual-power" units altogether, right?

I agree, but presumably they've done the sums....

Tony

[Tulyar15]

Bombardier has the Traxx-family of engines. They exist in different electric versions, 1,5 or 3 kV DC, 15 kV and 25 kV AC and multi-system-versions. Even a diesel-electric is available. Perhaps, designing will base on one of these engines. However, they are not allowed to go 125 mph.

May be not, but the one-off class 89 electric loco built for British Rail in 1989 by Brush WAS cleared for 125mph running. For more info about this loco see www.aclocogroup.co.uk

[owlsroost]

I was thinking of the Deutsche Bundesbahn class 103 electrics - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Class_103

Co-Co, 125mph, 9980hp continuous, 13900hp one-hour ratings, 114 tonnes and the backbone of DB's InterCity services from the early 1970s to the advent of the ICE trains (the last one was retired in 2003). Definite "Hall of Fame" material....

Looked pretty mean too, in an imposing sort of a way :-)

Tony 

[beaulieu]

Not on the press release.  Where does your information come from?

Bombardier, furthermore, manufactures their US stuff up in La Pocatiere in Canada, not in Europe.  That's where NJT's multi-levels came from.

The ALP-46 locomotives were built in Kassel, Germany, as will be the follow on order. My information says that these locomotives will also be built there. There is a difference between a commuter coach and a locomotive. 

 

I rechecked and my source says that the gensets will use Cat diesels, not MTU/Detroit. 

[JT22CW]

they should have enough money to electrify the whole system and forget about "dual-power" units altogether, right?

I agree, but presumably they've done the sums

In New Jersey, the only "sums" that matter are the amounts of money paid in patronage.  This is the same New Jersey Transit that has been closing remote fueling locations for diesels, and cutting train frequency when it needs to be raised.

There is a bit more information here.

I just used the 20-cylinder MTU engine as an example - it's available in V8, V12 & V16 configurations as well, and the V16 is less than 10 tons dry weight.

I guess that splitting the diesel power between two gensets might be to help the weight distribution e.g. a genset at each end of the loco with the transformer low down in the center. That way the electrical equipment could be concentrated in the center, with the 'dirty' diesel stuff in separate compartments at each end.

This experiment is going to be a disaster. If any commuter railroad has low tolerance for maintenance, it's NJ Transit. They've already standardized all of their diesel fleet to EMD (until recently, when they bought those P40DCs from Amtrak); these new beasts will be out there dying on the road with pistons melting onto the cylinder block, the way NJT currently maintains their fleet. They'll be wishing that they had invested in extending the third rail in the tunnels under the Hudson River and bought traditional dual-mode diesels instead, after a while.  Or just spent all this money on extending electrification.

[owlsroost]

I rechecked and my source says that the gensets will use Cat diesels, not MTU/Detroit. 

Hi John,

Any info on electric and diesel mode power ratings ?

Tony

[trainfan1221]

JT22CW brought up an interesting point, especially since according to my friend NJTransit just came out with new schedules featuring cuts in weekend service in my local line, which does well on weekends.  It probably means I will no longer be using them on those days.  The biggest problem with NJT, both bus and train, is they don't acknowledge that people have to get other places around the state in the morning and not just to New York.  I start work in a nearby town between 8-8:30 in the morning, and often can't get there on time.

[JT22CW]

What will they look like?

Well, this artist's rendition might be the answer to this question in particular.

The wisdom of using genset diesels as road locomotive prime movers is still very much questionable.  As is the matter of why is NJT spending their money on this instead of electrifying; consider how many miles of electrification you might get for $310 million, never mind the other items in NJT's collossal $1.29 billion budget that relate to rolling stock purchases that seem highly unnecessary when one relates them to the number of trains they are running and seemingly intend to run (or cut) in the future.

[daveklepper]

There already is third rail in the two Hudson PRR Tunnels left in placed from the Manhattan Transfer days.   Occasionally, Amtrak borrows two pairs (four cars) of LIRR dc third-rail mu's to power their tunnel wire train.  Formally, ex-NYC T and P motors were used and before that in PRR days DD-1's.   The last operating DD-1's were specifically saved for the wire train.   I think the end of the third rail shows up in photos of the portals.

[oltmannd]

What will they look like?

Well, this artist's rendition might be the answer to this question in particular.

The wisdom of using genset diesels as road locomotive prime movers is still very much questionable.  As is the matter of why is NJT spending their money on this instead of electrifying; consider how many miles of electrification you might get for $310 million, never mind the other items in NJT's collossal $1.29 billion budget that relate to rolling stock purchases that seem highly unnecessary when one relates them to the number of trains they are running and seemingly intend to run (or cut) in the future.

I agree that it appears that electrification or 3rd rail dual mode locos would make more sense, but why do you think gen-sets as prime movers is questionable?  Not much different application from HEP gen sets, I think.

[trainfan1221]

The picture basically shows one of the new diesels I think they are called PL42s, and one of the newer electrics combined into one.  Interesting concept.  Of course there is little new about a dual powered unit.

    I just thought I would throw this in, saw one of the new NJT hybrids sitting in Hoboken, interesting creature.  Can't believe it used to be one of the GP40FH engines.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The picture basically shows one of the new diesels I think they are called PL42s, and one of the newer electrics combined into one.  Interesting concept.  Of course there is little new about a dual powered unit.

    I just thought I would throw this in, saw one of the new NJT hybrids sitting in Hoboken, interesting creature.  Can't believe it used to be one of the GP40FH engines.

The NJT 1000 series are not hybrids.  They are conventional MP20B designs with low-emission Detroit Diesel/MTU engines as the prime movers.  http://www.motivepower-wabtec.com/locomotives/low-horsepower/mpex-low-emissions-locomotives.php 

[paulsafety]

From Railway Age

August 18, 2008 -- Bombardier signs dual power locomotive contracts with NJT, AMT

Bombardier Transportation Monday said it has signed contracts with both New Jersey Transit and Montreal's Agence Metropolitaine de Transport (AMT) to produce dual power locomotives, providing diesel and a.c. propulsion.

NJ Transit has ordered 26 of the units, which Bombardier values at $262 million, with an option for 63 additional locomotives. AMT's $223 million order involves 20 units, with options for 10 additional locomotives. NJ Transit's Board of Directors approved the deal last month (August RA, p. 18), while AMT officials held a press conference in Montreal Monday affirming its purchase.

Both NJT and AMT operations include a mix of catenary routes and non-electrified lines, prompting both to tap Bombardier's dual-powered locomotives for both diesel power and alternating current electric power from overhead sources. The new units, likely to be designated "ALP-45DP," are based in part on Bombardier's ALP-46 electric locomotive technology.

Locomotives for both contracts will be built at Bombardier manufacturing facilities in Germany and Poland. Delivery to both rail operators is scheduled to begin in 2011.

"We are proud to support NJ Transit and AMT in their continuing commitment to provide modern, efficient, environmentally-friendly passenger rail service," said Ake Wennberg, president of Bombardier Transportation's Locomotives and Equipment Division. "These two orders for new locomotives illustrate the confidence both agencies place in Bombardier and our products."

[beaulieu]

Yes, Bombardier builds the carbodies in Poland, the trucks are built in Siegen, Germany, traction modules in Mannheim, Germany, and then the locomotive will be assembled in in Kassel, Germany.