https://www.up.com/media/releases/battery-electric-locomotive-nr-220128.htm
Surprised I'm the first posting about this given the President even mentioned it.
10 from Progress/EMD and 10 from Wabtec.
If you look at the side bar, a few things are notable. First is that the EMD design is NOT AT ALL a joule in terms of carbody or trucks.
It looks like an SD70M/MAC that's been rebuilt. See the HTCR trucks underneath.
Also, and perhaps most interesting, note what appears to be a pantograph at the back.
Also note that the Wabtec unit appears to be the FLX drive unit. HOWEVER, I'm not sure we can 100% infer that UP is simply buying that design as is.
The EMD Joule of course could ride under the hood of an SD70, but the FLX is a bit of a different design, so it's curious if all 20 units will be used in the same service or not.
The press release notes that they've received money to "upgrade yard facilities" presumably that means charging infrastructure. It will be interesting to see if that pantograph is purely a static thing or if parts of the yard have wire strung up.
Most interesting to me is that the artist rendering implies they've chosen safety cab equipped units. Does this infer that these units will be running locals and turns, not just yard jobs?
Seems clear they'll have these based in North Platte and in the LA Basin. Not sure if they'll have them up here in Roseville where it certainly does get hot in the summer.
YoHo1975https://www.up.com/media/releases/battery-electric-locomotive-nr-220128.htm Surprised I'm the first posting about this given the President even mentioned it. 10 from Progress/EMD and 10 from Wabtec. If you look at the side bar, a few things are notable. First is that the EMD design is NOT AT ALL a joule in terms of carbody or trucks. It looks like an SD70M/MAC that's been rebuilt. See the HTCR trucks underneath. Also, and perhaps most interesting, note what appears to be a pantograph at the back. Also note that the Wabtec unit appears to be the FLX drive unit. HOWEVER, I'm not sure we can 100% infer that UP is simply buying that design as is. The EMD Joule of course could ride under the hood of an SD70, but the FLX is a bit of a different design, so it's curious if all 20 units will be used in the same service or not. The press release notes that they've received money to "upgrade yard facilities" presumably that means charging infrastructure. It will be interesting to see if that pantograph is purely a static thing or if parts of the yard have wire strung up. Most interesting to me is that the artist rendering implies they've chosen safety cab equipped units. Does this infer that these units will be running locals and turns, not just yard jobs? Seems clear they'll have these based in North Platte and in the LA Basin. Not sure if they'll have them up here in Roseville where it certainly does get hot in the summer.
Once in service will they also get a graffiti power assist like the locomotives they will be replacing?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Seems that there is not much information as to how it will work?
1. A big question is AC or DC traction motors?
2. If DC control will be simpler. How will the loco get 74 V DC power for various loco auxliaries? As well the DC for MU control of other locos?
3. AC would be less consumption of battery power esspecially starting as DC takes more and the DC traction motors can heat up running at continous slow speeds.
5. AC of course means transformers, rectifiers, & inverter(s) but they can have a tap for the 74 V with a rectifier for auxillaries.
6. The idea of a pan for charging batteries is wise as it precludes anyone disconnecting a charge cable. All the engineeer would have to do is press a button to raise and lower pan.
7. If CAT for chargiing what would the power to CAT be? It has many plus and minuses. Anything other than 25 kV ac could have problems for any other RR operation of electrified equipment. Thinking of CA HSR and Brightline west. Or if UP and BNSF electrified their mainlines an yard leads.
8. Other voltage and frequencies in that case would have to be on a siding that never could be accesed by road power.
9. DC voltage output from batteries may be between 600 - 1200 V ). If direct charging of barreries would need a plug in or CAT voltage about 6 -10% higher? Lower voltages require very heavy wire(s) for charging. Also the commercial power transformers & other needs to be close.
BTW. All these builders completely ignore the emmissions from power plantts to supply power to these batteries.
The builders don't have any control over the power plants so it makes sense they wouldn't reference them. I don't know about North Platte, but California has a high renewable mix. I think LA is less green than norcal (lots of local dams along with major transmission lines from Bonneville.) but in either case, for California, it will for sure be less. Nebraska is a test location due to Temps. I'd imagine once they get their answer, they could theoretically move the units to a more effective location.
Plus, Nebraska does not lack for space for wind and solar if there is the will to build it.
I would imagine it would be relatively trivial to string wire over the drill tracks for the humps where power sets spend an awful lot of time and get a lot of "bang for the buck."
Blue Streak 1, perhaps EMD is thinking there is a market for a variation of these units with commuter agencies in the future where they now have a mix of electrified and non-electrified lines. They may be able to electrify those lines using part catenary and part battery depending on the distance from the end of catenary.
(As to your last point, sshhh, we're not supposed to talk about that for any type of EV on rail or road. In the meantime, if we are ever going to have a prayer of a chance of getting to the dream of running 290 million vehicles in the US and all housing heat on electricity, we are going to need an awful lot of these which our friends Mr. Gates and Mr. Buffett are backing:
https://www.terrapower.com/naughton-power-plant-first-natrium-nuclear-reactor/
But in the meantime, sshhhh, don't talk about what powers that electric commuter train or EV - just say it is all wind and solar and everyone can be happy.)
blue streak 1Seems that there is not much information as to how it will work?
2. If DC control will be simpler. How will the loco get 74 V DC power for various loco auxiliaries? As well the DC for MU control of other locos?
3. AC would be less consumption of battery power especially starting as DC takes more and the DC traction motors can heat up running at continuous slow speeds.
What happened to #4?
5. AC of course means transformers, rectifiers, & inverter(s) but they can have a tap for the 74 V with a rectifier for auxiliaries.
The situation using 750VDC from existing or prospective types of third rail is slightly more complicated, but again if this involves running 'external' current through the battery system as on a tripower locomotive this is just a step-up or voltage-to-voltage concern.
The idea of a pan for charging batteries is wise as it precludes anyone disconnecting a charge cable. All the engineer would have to do is press a button to raise and lower pan.
7. If CAT for chargiing what would the power to CAT be? It has many plus and minuses. Anything other than 25 kV ac could have problems for any other RR operation of electrified equipment. Thinking of CA HSR and Brightline west. Or if UP and BNSF electrified their mainlines and yard leads.
Since I am a firm believer in the use of sequentially expanding discontinuous catenary in building out electrification... any little pieces of overhead infrastructure ought to be designed to a common standard with an eye toward inclusion in a larger 'electrification'. But it also remains plausible to wire cheap in some places and build the necessary multivoltage capability in.
There's also the 'flag day' model, in which you pick a day in the future when you repower your 1500VDC yard to use higher-voltage AC power or whatever...
9. DC voltage output from batteries may be between 600 - 1200V. If direct charging of batteries would need a plug in or CAT voltage about 6 -10% higher? Lower voltages require very heavy wire(s) for charging. Also the commercial power transformers & other needs to be close.
BTW. All these builders completely ignore the emissions from power plants to supply power to these batteries.
Note that there are a number of proposals and studies involving the use of electrified railroad equipment, including battery-equipped locomotives with single or multiple-phase plug-in, as resources for 'the grid' distribution infrastructure or for emergency management. It is possible, for example, that nighttime train operation might provide the equivalent of some 'baseline' power at times renewable-solar generation capacity is unavailable...
I recall reading the Railway Age article about Wabtec's road electrics. The second generation uses the overhead method to be able to recharge faster. I think it said the time was about cut in half from 8 hours to 4 hours using the pan for the initial charge.
Somewhere on the employee's site, Lance was saying they weren't convinced (yet) about the merits of battery powered road units.
I myself think battery power has it's place. But it's not practical for some transportation applications, especially heavy duty ones. I think the current (no pun intended) electric battery powered fever that is sweeping the country is more about salesmenship to an audience that is urban and used to 30 second sound bites.
Jeff
I tend to agree with Overmod that the near term future is going to involve a yes and approach where locosets are going to have batteries/overhead electric AND diesel. This will enable the grid to catch up both in terms of capacity and transmission.
There are a lot of irons in the fire on power infrastructure. We can't wait for all of them to come to fruition.
From a California centric perspective. The world would not be a worse place if the LA basin and the Central Valley had alot more wire strung up over their tracks. Batteries and diesel engines to bridge and/or take over on the way out wouldn't be too terrible.
I have never been one to admit conclusions that fail with later developments. Have long been not favorable to Li ION batteries due to their propensity to catch fire and the difficulties in putting said fire out. I speak from experience.
Now there may be a replacement compound that can change the whole metric, It is GaN better known as Gallium Nitrite. Not only can it exceed the therotical limits of Silicon it can reduce the size of batteries. Is capable of faster charging and voltage limitations are now up to 800V for inverters, That may become a way to make AC traction motors more efficient. Also with regeneration of locos may be able to come with less power loss.
Enough said read the following that I dug up.
How GaN is changing the future of semiconductors (msn.com)
EDIT: "IF" This works then the concept of wireless streetcars and trolly buses in downtown areas make them more feasible. UP might like it as well in their purcase listed in this post.
Gallium nitride is not a battery material; it would be a switching material, and might be tolerant of higher energy-density architecture, but the actual chemistry or supercapacitor construction would not be affected.
I will be highly interested to see Erik's opinions on this.
Where do you propose to source the additional gallium supply?
Overmod Gallium nitride is not a battery material; it would be a switching material, and might be tolerant of higher energy-density architecture, but the actual chemistry or supercapacitor construction would not be affected. I will be highly interested to see Erik's opinions on this.
GaN is not, as far as I know, a battery material. It is, however, a Wide Band Gap (WBG) semiconductor, where the band gap refers to the amount of energy to dislodge an electron. The band gap is also related to high temperature performance. Siicon has a wider band gap than germanium, and silicon transistors/IC's can operate with junction temperature of 150 to 175C, where germanium devices would fail at less than 100C.
The two most common WBG semiconductors are Silicon Carbide (AKA carborundum) and Gallium Nititride (SiC and GaN for short). The advantage of SiC and GaN is that for a given resistivity for doped materials, the breakdwn voltages for SiC and GaN are much higher than for plain silicon. This allows for a much smaller device for a given current rating and breakdown voltage. In addition to taking up less physical space, the smaller size also means less output capacitance, which then leads to lower switching losses. One final advantage of the WBG's is that the instrinsic body diodes have a much shorter reverse recovery time (Trr is about 40 nano-seconds for a 1200V SiC MOSFET versus abou 1,000 nano-seconds dor a silicon MOSFET). The dramatically lower Trr for SiC means that an SiC part can switch much faster than a silicon part and have much lower switching loss. The lower switching loss means less cooling needed for a given power output.
GaN has an even higher breakdown voltage for a give resistivity than SiC, but SiC has a higher thermal conductivity GaN or silicon (good for high power devices). For locomotive traction inverters, SiC will will likely prevail over GaN, though the opposite is true for items like laptop power supplies. An example, the highest voltage rating for a GanFET is ~1,000V, where you can buy 3,300V rated SiCFETs
The advantage of WBG devices for battery operation is that it's easier to work with the near constant voltage output of batteries along with much smaller packages for the inverter.
Silicon has been touted as a new materials for battery electrodes, where the slicon structures would serve as cages for the Litium ions and thus allow for a larger number of charge/discharge cycles.
I have a feeling that UP will like the EMD electrics better than the GEs. It looks like the EMD ones will come in a somwhat modified sd70m shell which UP seems to really like there SD70Ms and many of which are still in service. Plus, I think EMD's juole locmotives are already operating elswhere. If I am wrong correct me.
EMD has sold them and they've been in revenue service down in South America.
Wabtec has test units that have been out and about. So EMD is slightly ahead of the game in terms of sold and operating units.
jeffhergert I recall reading the Railway Age article about Wabtec's road electrics. The second generation uses the overhead method to be able to recharge faster. I think it said the time was about cut in half from 8 hours to 4 hours using the pan for the initial charge. Somewhere on the employee's site, Lance was saying they weren't convinced (yet) about the merits of battery powered road units. I myself think battery power has it's place. But it's not practical for some transportation applications, especially heavy duty ones. I think the current (no pun intended) electric battery powered fever that is sweeping the country is more about salesmenship to an audience that is urban and used to 30 second sound bites. Jeff
I agree. I don't see the practicality of BEL in linehaul. However yard and local duty they will excel.
People are struck by "green energy" delusion as well. Diesel will still be more cost effective and efficient in road use.
"Battery-electrics in linehaul" is a fad, the railroad equivalent of autonomous electric class 8 trucks, or electrified rakes of 'integral train' cars with no logical place for a pan.
On the other hand, they do so much so well for a dual-mode-lite consist I find it amazing there isn't more enthusiasm... they can provide much of the functionality, including punctate electrification, for relatively small locomotive conversion cost.
SD60MAC9500I agree. I don't see the practicality of BEL in linehaul. However yard and local duty they will excel. People are struck by "green energy" delusion as well. Diesel will still be more cost effective and efficient in road use.
We're going to need more locomotives. Many of our local/yard engines get passed from one job to another - no time to recharge.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I think the intent of battery-electrics in line haul will be to have them sandwiched between regular diesel-electrics. They can then be kept charged from the mother units (as well has recharging from dynamic braking from itself and the mothers) and provide traction and dynamic braking. This won't eliminate emissions, but will reduce them.
I think, however, that battery-electrics are being sold to the general public as a "stand alone" power source. That trains will be powered only by battery-electrics when the reality will be different.
I would think for those large yards near major metropolitan areas where electric use is desired, it would be better to string wire over the yard leads where the engines do most of their operating. Have an engine that has a battery back up for when it needs to leave energized wire, such as to/from the lead to a servicing facility (which could also have catenary for recharging) or to go into the bowl of a yard to retrieve a car(s).
Such engines (straight electric/battery) would be restricted to yard service. But I'm sure some of these yards would have enough such assignments to warrant semi-permanent assignment of specialized power. Especially when the goal is more of a public relations/we're doing our part to save the world campaign.
Zug,Jeff. Be sure to have a quick exit strategy in case this happens. Everyone you need to remember this. Do not charge or use when a Li ion battery is hot.
(2) An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris - YouTube
Lithium batters are FAR FROM MASTERED.
BaltACD Lithium batters are FAR FROM MASTERED.
The battery fire incidents reminds me of the early days of steam boats and early locomotive boilers. There has been a good deal of progress in learning what causes Li-ion battery fires, but a lot of progress is needed in preventing battery fires.
I don't know if this is the best thread on the Joule, but I'll use it.
As seen on Loconotes, EMD has released more details on the full Joule line and Artists renditions (I assume) of the SD70J and SD40JR
As suspected, they are in traditional reused North American bodies.
https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html
I downloaded the screenshots of the artist renditions which are not on that page, but not sure how to upload them on this site.
The question I have as are these using AC traction or DC traction. the Artist rendition shows the SD40JR with standard HT-C trucks and the SD70J appears to have standard HTCR bogies.
Dave said in this thread https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/p/287983/3338736.aspx
That the smaller AC motors could be made to fit, but that he would be surprised if they did so.
Once again, begs the question what bogies are under these units.
Of course, the SD40JR has no fuel tank in that picture so I guess if they wanted to they could stuff HTCR trucks under it.
YoHo1975I don't know if this is the best thread on the Joule, but I'll use it. As seen on Loconotes, EMD has released more details on the full Joule line and Artists renditions (I assume) of the SD70J and SD40JR As suspected, they are in traditional reused North American bodies. https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html I downloaded the screenshots of the artist renditions which are not on that page, but not sure how to upload them on this site. The question I have as are these using AC traction or DC traction. the Artist rendition shows the SD40JR with standard HT-C trucks and the SD70J appears to have standard HTCR bogies. Dave said in this thread https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/p/287983/3338736.aspx That the smaller AC motors could be made to fit, but that he would be surprised if they did so. Once again, begs the question what bogies are under these units. Of course, the SD40JR has no fuel tank in that picture so I guess if they wanted to they could stuff HTCR trucks under it.
SD70J-BB sounds like it will be a BIG MoFo. 525K on rail. Max speed of 50 MPH may be a downer in many US use situations.
BaltACD SD70J-BB sounds like it will be a BIG MoFo. 525K on rail. Max speed of 50 MPH may be a downer in many US use situations.
At the bottom of the SD70J-BB column where it says "gauge" it says "Standard, narrow, broad".
Probably if a standard or broad gauge they might be on a C-C configuration.
rdamon BB? is that for Brazil?
BB means it uses the 4-axle GBB truck first used in Brazil under the SD70ACe-BB. EMD won't ever do a DD with the 4-axle rigid truck in the future as it's just too hard on the rails in curves and too expensive to make the huge cast truck frame now since pattern was scrapped in the late 1980's.
Even though the brochure doesn't show a picture of the SD70J-BB with the 4-axle trucks I'm quite sure it will use a standard gauge derivative of the GBB used in Brazil.
As far as which truck will be used on the SD70J, that must be an HTCR with the same motors as an SD70ACe given the 200kLbs. starting TE. As far as the SD40JR, I really don't know since the 96:15 gear ratio with 50 mph max speed I don't recognize. Perhaps it's a new smaller AC motor that will fit in the HT-C. Since it only shows that model as for standard gauge, I suspect it will reuse the HT-C truck and perhaps DC motors with a new gear ratio.
Dave
So where does one expect to see an SD70J-BB with 50 mph limit in use in the US?
Captive service between Barstow and Bakersfield and Barstow and the Port of LA/LB, perhaps?
Lifting grain, coal and oil over Mullan Pass on the former NP, perhaps?
I was completely wrong.
Found Hi res images on Progress Rail's Twitter feed.
That is the new cab from the T4 with the teardrop windows and the the fabricated trucks
https://twitter.com/Progress_Rail/status/1554590293135081472/photo/1
Does not answer the question on what the SD40J is really riding on.
Also, I wonder if there's changes to the frame such that they couldn't reuse older locos.
In the Automotive world it's generally the case that the design is better if new from the ground up. My going in assumption was that that would not hold for locomotives, because why would it.
Maybe UP will trade in some SD60s
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/807400/
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