I hope i posted in the right forum why is there a light that was red above the ditch lights on a trailing locomotive for cn i think a GE unit. the lights were mounted on the the front and rear platforms. thanks.
I may be wrong, but aren't they marker lights.
If it's a traling locomotive those red lights are the rear marker lights, traditional and customary for the end of a train. You see this a lot in commuter trains operating in a "push-pull" configuration. When leading the locomotive displays white lights as you'd expect. When it's pushing it displays red lights.
Search You Tube for postings by railfans of commuter trains (I like New Jersey Transit shots myself, it's a bit of home) and you'll see plenty of examples.
They are, technically, marker lights, signifying that the locomotive is the end of the train. CN is the last Class One to buy new locomotives with them. Others just use a headlight dimmed or a FRED (and I have seen Amtrak use the dim headlight solution when the one marker light went out on an F59PHI)
I don't think a Canadian GE would operate in commuter service. FRA allows dimmed headlights as an alternative to red markers ... but mandates that red markers work precisely as provided ... so most modern DPU-capable (if that's what was meant by 'trailing locomotive') engines don't use the red markers.
There was some discussion here that red rear markers are required where passenger trains are present. I do not know what current Canadian law on markers is, but they did have an interesting 'proprietary' white/green/red class light system at one time (I'll leave it to the Canadians here to explain its history and use properly) and Canadian power may still be set up to display red lights on the rear of a consist.
RMEI don't think a Canadian GE would operate in commuter service. FRA allows dimmed headlights as an alternative to red markers ... but mandates that red markers work precisely as provided ... so most modern DPU-capable (if that's what was meant by 'trailing locomotive') engines don't use the red markers. There was some discussion here that red rear markers are required where passenger trains are present. I do not know what current Canadian law on markers is, but they did have an interesting 'proprietary' white/green/red class light system at one time (I'll leave it to the Canadians here to explain its history and use properly) and Canadian power may still be set up to display red lights on the rear of a consist.
White/Green/Red is not propritary and not Canadian. It was standard for all locomotives into the late 1980's when Operating Rules that permitted Timetable & Train Order operations were replaced by DTC and Track Warrent forms of operation.
A locomotive displaying White, indicated that it was an Extra Train. A locomotive displaying Green indicated that there were following sections of the Schedule that the train was running on. A locomotive without indicator lights was either the last section or only section of the schedule the train was operating on. A locomotive displayed Red to the rear, when it was on the rear of a train as markers to denote the end of the train as required by rule.
In Timetable and Train Order territory trains were identified by schedule number and engine number on train orders.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWhite/Green/Red is not proprietary and not Canadian.
I was referring to the physical arrangement of the lights, which on many Canadian locomotives were physically separate adjacent red, green, and white lights in a row, as described in this article or as seen in this picture (the first one I could find browsing the Web)
RME BaltACD I was referring to the physical arrangement of the lights, which on many Canadian locomotives were physically separate adjacent red, green, and white lights in a row, as described in this article or as seen in this picture (the first one I could find browsing the Web)
BaltACD
Lights had the same meanings in both US and Canada - no matter how they were configured on the locomotive.
RME BaltACD White/Green/Red is not proprietary and not Canadian. I was referring to the physical arrangement of the lights, which on many Canadian locomotives were physically separate adjacent red, green, and white lights in a row, as described in this article or as seen in this picture (the first one I could find browsing the Web)
BaltACD White/Green/Red is not proprietary and not Canadian.
This was the system used on Alco Century Series locomotives. EMD locomotives used changeable colored lenses behind the exterior class light lens. Nothing Canadian about it.
Buslist RME BaltACD White/Green/Red is not proprietary and not Canadian. I was referring to the physical arrangement of the lights, which on many Canadian locomotives were physically separate adjacent red, green, and white lights in a row, as described in this article or as seen in this picture (the first one I could find browsing the Web) This was the system used on Alco Century Series locomotives. EMD locomotives used changeable colored lenses behind the exterior class light lens. Nothing Canadian about it.
I was just looking at CP pictures from the 1970s because of this thread. Early on the low hood EMDs seemed to have had a single changealble lens class light. Most where above the number board, but I did see a picture of a GP35 with them on the nose. Later on, they seemed to have went to the three light arrangement above the number board.
I wonder if placing the class light above the number board is the reason they went to a three light combo. It's easier to flip a switch in the cab than to stand and reach over to change the lens color outside. Especially if the walk ways are covered with snow and ice.
A couple of the pictures showed the engines also carrying cloth flags. One picture with white flags, another with green flags.
Jeff
Both Alco and MLW used that system. GMD-produced locomotives had the same movable class light system (at least initially) except it was moved up above the number boards.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/426306/
Later GMD-built units seem to have transitioned to the three-individual-light system.
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/93574/
(EDIT: Posted same time as Jeff, who has a better answer)
RME There was some discussion here that red rear markers are required where passenger trains are present. I do not know what current Canadian law on markers is, but they did have an interesting 'proprietary' white/green/red class light system at one time (I'll leave it to the Canadians here to explain its history and use properly) and Canadian power may still be set up to display red lights on the rear of a consist.
The Canadian Rail Operating Rules (CROR) definition of Marker is:
CP has not ordered new locomotives equipped with class/marker lights since the end of Train Order Operation and does not even put a dimmed headlight on remotes, but CN and VIA Rail both continue to use markers in some form. For CN this is in the form of the red marker light(s) on DP-equipped locomotives (although I have seen a few of our trains with a dimmed headlight instead), and VIA places a red reflectorized plate in the rear knuckle of the last piece of equipment in the train, as shown in the photos:
http://railpictures.net/photo/596762/
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/588887/
The class light meanings have already been explained and were indeed the same as in the U.S, but of course have been irrelevant since the official end of Train Order Operation circa 1990. Most locomotives built before then still have their class lights in place, and many of them still work (the shops staff must continue to replace burnt-out bulbs). A few guys (including myself) will turn them on to white or green if the opportunity arises, but not red as it still means something today.
NorthWest Both Alco and MLW used that system. GMD-produced locomotives had the same movable class light system (at least initially) except it was moved up above the number boards.
In addtion to this CN had a bunch of units, mostly if not all SD40's with separate white and green class lights above the numberboards. I have never been on one of these so I am unsure if the had a red lens on either light. They have managed to survive several repaintings on this ex-CN unit:
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/588661/
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I don't know why CN orders their engines with the marker lights as they are not required to be used in Canada or the US. It's nice to have but with how much CN loves to pinch pennies, I don't understand why they install them.
In Canada the engine istself is the marker and in the US they use the dimmed headlight.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
I've got a question here.
Several days ago I saw a CSX locomotive operating on the lead of a freight with red lights lit instead of the customary white lights a lead unit would display. Nothing special about the train, just a plain ol' freight. No white headlight, just red. Anyone know what that was all about?
They may have just forgotten to turn the red lights off after running around the train, seen that happen a few times. Are you sure it was the lead unit, and not the remote on a stopped train?
Or this could be something else required by a CSX-specific rule, in that case I'm sure Balt will know the answer. And if he doesn't I hear he now has lots of time to look it up...
Thanks for the response SD70, I suspected they may have forgotten to turn the red lights off myself, I've seen quite a few CSX freights come past my favorite train watching place and this is the first I've ever seen with the red lights on, and that includes local delivery jobs complete with caboose shoving platforms. And yes, it was the lead unit, no shoving platform on this one and a fair-sized train, too big to be a local delivery job.
Firelock76Thanks for the response SD70, I suspected they may have forgotten to turn the red lights off myself, I've seen quite a few CSX freights come past my favorite train watching place and this is the first I've ever seen with the red lights on, and that includes local delivery jobs complete with caboose shoving platforms. And yes, it was the lead unit, no shoving platform on this one and a fair-sized train, too big to be a local delivery job.
About the only CSX engines with the 'Class Lights' still in place are the former ConRail engines. Since it has been 17 years since the CR split happened, I am at a loss to understand how the class lights haven't been plated over as the engines were shopped over the years.
CSX locals perform a wide variety of functions across the system. Many have small trains and shoving platforms - some have very large trains and shoving platforms - others have large trains without shoving platforms - still others, at points on their rounds, might be just light engines. They are all doing the work CSX requires of them.
Thanks for the response Balt, I think the engine in question was a GP38, certainly old enough to have been a ConRail unit. GP38's are still very common here in the Richmond VA area, I see them quite often.
As to why the class lights weren't plated over, well, you know the old saying. "There's always one that slips through the cracks."
Maybe I'm just used to it being from the U.S. but doesn't it seem kind of dangerous to not have some kind of marker for the end of a train? Ideally a train shouldn't crash into the back of another one but that to me seems like just one more last ditch effort to warn people there's a parked train sitting in that dense fog or heavy snow storm....must be somewhat useful if the U.S. requires it. Just curious.
coopersMaybe I'm just used to it being from the U.S. but doesn't it seem kind of dangerous to not have some kind of marker for the end of a train? Ideally a train shouldn't crash into the back of another one but that to me seems like just one more last ditch effort to warn people there's a parked train sitting in that dense fog or heavy sno storm....must be somewhat useful if the U.S. requires it. Just curious.
When an engine is on the rear of a train, the rear headlight is left on dim as the rear end marker.
BaltACD coopers Maybe I'm just used to it being from the U.S. but doesn't it seem kind of dangerous to not have some kind of marker for the end of a train? Ideally a train shouldn't crash into the back of another one but that to me seems like just one more last ditch effort to warn people there's a parked train sitting in that dense fog or heavy sno storm....must be somewhat useful if the U.S. requires it. Just curious. When an engine is on the rear of a train, the rear headlight is left on dim as the rear end marker.
coopers Maybe I'm just used to it being from the U.S. but doesn't it seem kind of dangerous to not have some kind of marker for the end of a train? Ideally a train shouldn't crash into the back of another one but that to me seems like just one more last ditch effort to warn people there's a parked train sitting in that dense fog or heavy sno storm....must be somewhat useful if the U.S. requires it. Just curious.
.
I wonder if these lights serve any purpose at all. Given the stopping distances of modern freight trains, by the time the light is visible is a rear ender already inevitable? If you are on a multitrack line, does the marker become visible some distance before it is apparent it is occupying your track?
I suppose reducing the speed at which any hit occurs is desirable but perhaps that is the best that can be anticipated.
That might be an issue in dark territory if a lap order was issued in the track warrants. In signalled territory, the engineer would have to ignore the wayside signals (riding the yellow?) for such a situation to occur.
Dakguy201I wonder if these lights serve any purpose at all. Given the stopping distances of modern freight trains, by the time the light is visible is a rear ender already inevitable? If you are on a multitrack line, does the marker become visible some distance before it is apparent it is occupying your track? I suppose reducing the speed at which any hit occurs is desirable but perhaps that is the best that can be anticipated.
The reality of railroading is that unless you are operating at 'Restricted Speed' you are operating at a speed that will normally be faster than your visual stopping distance.
Restricted Speed normally defined as 'Stopping within 1/2 the range of vision - not exceeding a specified speed (depending upon the specific carrier rules that can be 10-15-20 MPH). The various 'Approach' signal indications require stopping at the next signal unless it is displaying some form of indication that permits the train to proceed.
In 'DARK' territory, if you don't have authority to the track, you don't go.
BaltACDThe reality of railroading is that unless you are operating at 'Restricted Speed' you are operating at a speed that will normally be faster than your visual stopping distance.
And operating restricted speed, you can't rely on seeing a headlight or marker. Electronic things fail. They are really helpful, but not to be relied upon.
Also, a marker is used to identify the end of a train. That can be important for operations. Eyeing a marker lets you know that a train didn't leave behind some of its cars back on the main somewhere.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Maybe I'm biased since I work for CN, but I do find the red light useful when trying to spot the end of a train in dark or dim conditions, more so than a dimmed headlight would be since it doesn't blind you at all (even the dim setting on a locomotive headlight is quite bright).
Of course this only works after you have already seen the light, if you can't see one and are operating at restricted speed you still have to be able to stop in half the distance you CAN see.
After the use of DP became more common and widespread, UP thought about using a red light on the DP for a marker. I remember one thought was some kind of light that could plug into the MU receptacle.
There were a couple of reasons mentioned as to why a red light might be better than the headlight on dim. (Some mentioned here) In the long run, nothing came of it and the dimmed headlight remains the primary means of marking the end when a DPU is at the end of the train.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.