From a 1950's era country & western song by Hank Snow:
"That big eight wheeler rollin' down the track
Means your sweet-lovin' daddy ain't comin' back
and I"m movin' on...."
What was the preferred engine for a prestigious passenger train? Did it depend on the prestige of the train? On the railroad? On the territory being traversed?
I've seen where streamlined steam engines were used to advertize name passenger trains. Were there other, more locomotives used in advertizing ?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Going to say it was a 4-8-4, even though it could have been a 4-8-2. Not sure but Hank was the Singing Brakeman.Too answer all your questions in one way Yes. That was all dependent on territory, railroad and prestige. You wouldnt see a 4-6-2 commuter on the head end of the Golden State! That was held by Heavy Mountains and then the big 4-8-4's in its later days.
I think Hank was singing about a fast freight though.Mr Engineer tak that throttle in hand cause this rattlers the fastest in the Southern land Mr fireman wont you please listen to me cause I got a pretty momma in Tennesse So shovel the coal let this rattler roll and keep moving me on.
I know I left out a few lyrics but hey my Hank Snow Cd is at home.I also like the Golden Rocket, The song about all the Canadian trains going to and from Nova Scotia, the Southern Cannonball. All good old tunes.
But I like the old movin on song. Its starting to fit my life at the moment.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
It depended mostly on the railroad, the size (tonnage) of the train and the terrain. For example K-4 Pacifics were the standard passenger train motive power on the Pennsy up to the time the T-1 4-4-4-4's were introduced. On the heavier trains the K-4's would be doublheaded. The T-1's became the preferred power on the most prestigious trains (which were often also the heaviest) such as the Broadway Ltd, General, Spirit of St. Louis and the Penn-Texas.
The NYC used Pacifics on its lighter trains and 4-6-4 Hudsons on the heavier ones. Similarly, IC and Southern trains would be headed by Pacifics and Mountains. The western roads (UP, SF, SP) also used Pacifics and Mountains but on the heavier trains and where grades were a factor 4-8-4's were the preferred power.
Mark
It's a country & western song and I'm sure that Hank Snow had a valid artistic license. Be that as it may, eight-wheeler has long been an alternate reference to a 4-4-0.
Well finally something I know a little about, being a C&W musician and a model railroader / railfan!!
Hank Snow was "The Singing Ranger". It was Jimmie Rodgers who was "The Singing Brakeman" because he worked for the Mobile & Ohio railroad in Mississippi as...well, just about everything except a brakeman, think his last job was as a Yardmaster. "I'm Movin' On" became Hank's breakthrough US hit in 1950 (after 15 years of recording in Canada), held no.1 on the Country charts for I think 26 weeks straight??
I'm Movin' On
By the 1920's many railroads had started to use 4-8-2's on their top heavyweight passenger trains, and then Northerns in the late twenties. The first 4-8-4's were named "Northerns" after the Northern Pacific, who had the first 4-8-4's built to haul the North Coast Limited. Neighbor Great Northern soon bought 4-8-4's too, as did many many other railroads. At least a couple, Milwaukee 261 and UP 844 are still around. There were some streamlined eight-coupled engines, like the N&W "J" class engines, but smaller engines seem to have been more likely to be streamlined, like Hudsons for example. So an "eight wheeler" (4-8-2 or 4-8-4) on a top passenger train would be perfectly correct for the time.
BTW when I was a kid in the sixties/early seventies in the Twin Cities, we used to watch the KSTP morning "farm report" show with David Stone, who had been one of the early announcers at the Grand Ole Opry and first brought Roy Acuff to the Opry. He played music on the show, and played home-made 'videos' that included one of Hank Snow's "I'm Movin' On" with lots of classic color and B&W film of steam trains that got a lot of play. I'd love to see that again now!!
...Of course ol' Hank could have ment skippin' town by hopping a slow freight being pulled by one of these:
Have fun with your trains
wjstix wrote: Well finally something I know a little about, being a C&W musician and a model railroader / railfan!! Hank Snow was "The Singing Ranger". It was Jimmie Rodgers who was "The Singing Brakeman" because he worked for the Mobile & Ohio railroad in Mississippi as...well, just about everything except a brakeman, think his last job was as a Yardmaster. "I'm Movin' On" became Hank's breakthrough US hit in 1950 (after 15 years of recording in Canada), held no.1 on the Country charts for I think 26 weeks straight??I'm Movin' On By the 1920's many railroads had started to use 4-8-2's on their top heavyweight passenger trains, and then Northerns in the late twenties. The first 4-8-4's were named "Northerns" after the Northern Pacific, who had the first 4-8-4's built to haul the North Coast Limited. Neighbor Great Northern soon bought 4-8-4's too, as did many many other railroads. At least a couple, Milwaukee 261 and UP 844 are still around. There were some streamlined eight-coupled engines, like the N&W "J" class engines, but smaller engines seem to have been more likely to be streamlined, like Hudsons for example. So an "eight wheeler" (4-8-2 or 4-8-4) on a top passenger train would be perfectly correct for the time. BTW when I was a kid in the sixties/early seventies in the Twin Cities, we used to watch the KSTP morning "farm report" show with David Stone, who had been one of the early announcers at the Grand Ole Opry and first brought Roy Acuff to the Opry. He played music on the show, and played home-made 'videos' that included one of Hank Snow's "I'm Movin' On" with lots of classic color and B&W film of steam trains that got a lot of play. I'd love to see that again now!!
I really hate to nitpick, Stix, because you are very knowledgeable, but Jimmie Rodgers was the "Yodeling" Brakeman. He died of tuberculosis and during his last recording session, a bed had to be provided for him to rest in between songs. A shame, he was great. His best known song was "Waiting for a Train" which you surely know.
And I believe the eight-wheeler was a boxcar. My reason for thinking this was that during the early '50s my friends and I used to hang around a Shantytown by the river, which was a leftover from the Great Depression. The MoPac's old Iron Mountain Line ran past there and people used to talk about coming in, (from the south) on an eight-wheel express, or going home on an eight-wheel express. It was understood that they meant hopping a freight.
Like many things, though, this expression could have arisen from other sources.
That's OK Ishmael, because I love to nitpick!!
"James Charles Rodgers, known professionally as the Singing Brakeman and America's Blue Yodeler, was the first performer inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame."
Above taken from the Country Music Hall of Fame website
If he was singing about a boxcar on a freight train, I assume he would sing to/about hoboes on the train...whereas in several verses he speaks directly to the engineer and fireman. "Mister Engineer, take that throttle in hand, this rattler's the fastest in the Southern land...Mister Fireman won't you please listen to me, cause I got a pretty baby in Tennessee...Won't you shovel that coal, make this rattler roll, and keep movin' on" which with other references makes it pretty clear the "eight wheeler" referred to is a steam engine.
BTW re an earlier post...I doubt the fastest train in the South was being pulled by a Chicagoland 0-8-0 yard switcher!!
I stand corrected. Shows what happens when you get your information from drinking buddies instead of at the source. (I quit drinking over 30 years ago, so that shows how old my info is).
Talking to the fireman and engineer, and knowing that there were still some 4-4-0s operating in 1950 does make more sense in the context of the song. And as I said, there are many explanations for old sayings, because them folks in Shantytown did use the term eight-wheel express.
Thanks for the site-I'll check it out. I play the guitar and sing a lot of C&W, with more enthusiasm than skill. Rodgers' " In the Jailhouse Now" is one of my favorites.
Ishmael wrote: Talking to the fireman and engineer, and knowing that there were still some 4-4-0s operating in 1950 does make more sense in the context of the song.
Talking to the fireman and engineer, and knowing that there were still some 4-4-0s operating in 1950 does make more sense in the context of the song.
I doubt in 1950 the 'fastest (train) in the Southern land' would be using a 4-4-0?? Once steel heavyweight cars came along, 4-4-0's were pretty much relegated to branchlines and short distance commuter trains. I believe engines with eight driving wheels were also sometimes called 'eight wheelers', like a 4-8-4.
We have to be careful not to expect everyone (including working railroaders) to use designations and nicknames etc. that railfans have assigned over the years...for example, before UP's 4-8-8-4's came along, "Big Boy" was apparently a term used for any large engine. (In the movie "Danger Lights" a character refers to what I believe was a USRA heavy mikado as a "Big Boy" for example.) I remember reading that someone visiting the LS&I to photograph their ex-Santa Fe Alco's were surprised to find out none of the employees knew that those engines were called "Alligators" by railfans; they had their own nickname for them (which I forget now). "Phases" of engines (like an EMD "phase 2" F3) was also a railfan creation not used by railroaders.
Besides I don't know if there were "big" eight-wheelers as far as 4-4-0's, most were fairly small by modern standards.
Anyway, you can't take an artistic representation like a painting, song, poem etc. too literally a lot of the time. I remember one forum (I think a Kalmbach one?) got into a long discussion of the song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" and how some details were right and some weren't. Another example, the typical Hollywood "Biopic" is usually about 10% fact and 90% made-up storyline.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
To most people, a steam engine's most obvious characteristics would be the sound, the belching smoke, and the rolling drivers with all the siderods moving. How many lead and trailing wheels there were, if any, wouldn't probably even be noticed. Just because a railfan wouldn't call a 4-8-4 or 2-8-2 an "eight wheeler" doesn't mean a regular person wouldn't.
I've never heard anyone (regular people, railroaders or railfans) call a boxcar a "big eight wheeler". "Side door Pullman" yes, but not "big eight wheeler". The song makes no reference to anything about a boxcar or freightcar, but several references about a steam engine: "Take that throttle in hand", "Shovel the coal", "That big loud whistle" etc. Since there are no references to being in a boxcar directly, it's unlikely the first line of the song is an obscure reference to a boxcar that everyone misinterpreted as a reference to a steam engine.
It is certainly possible that he's on a freight train ("rattler" was a slang term for a freight train (not a freight car)) being pulled by an eight-drivered steam engine, rather than being on a passenger train (although the reference to "put 'er there on time" would be more likely to refer to a scheduled passenger train, rather than a (normally) unschedule freight).
On a side note, Casey Jones has been described as driving a "six-eight wheeler" and in some version a "big eight wheeler"...neither of which describe the 4-6-0 he was killed in...although I read somewhere once that in maybe Canada at one time an engine with six drivers and an eight wheel tender would be called a "6-8" but I've never seen that anywhere else. So songs can be a little bit 'off' as far as true railroad name usage.
BTW the engine he normally drove was a 2-8-0.
I too have heard the side door pullman reference. The only reference an eight-wheeler being a boxcar that I have heard is in Ishmael's post above.
Here is a list of hobo/railroad slang that lists eight-wheeler.
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/terminology.html
It defines it thus:
Eight-wheeler - A box-car burglar, one who robs trains while in transit or while unguarded in a yard or station. A locomotive with eight wheels. Source: American Tramp and Underworld Slang.
I notice it does not make a distinction between drivers and other wheels, so apparently it is the well-used definition of a 4-4-0 or American Standard type. The boxcar burglar definition seems to tie it to a boxcar, but I don't get the burglar connection to the term.
Let's listen:
http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3051735240039019157rApKtE
steemtrayn wrote: Let's listen:http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3051735240039019157rApKtE
It's important to remember that Hank Snow was (AFAIK) never a railroader or even a railfan (he was a sailor, having started as a cabin boy at age 12). Those of us who are in this hobby understand that an "eight wheeler" is the 'official nickname' (if there is such a thing?) of a 4-4-0 steam engine. I doubt Hank knew that, or would understand what "4-4-0" referred to. So the fact that he says "big eight wheeler" shouldn't be taken too literally as meaning a 4-4-0 American. It's more likely he's picturing in his mind a big steam engine with eight driving wheels pulling a long train at top speed...heck, maybe he heard the term "eight wheeler" sometime and thought it meant an engine with eight drivers, or just thought it sounded neat so used it in the song.
Besides as I noted earlier, in 1950 a 4-4-0 would be obsolete and rare, not to mention tiny compared to steam engines of the day in mainline use. Had he said "that little eight wheeler rollin' down the line" I'd say he probably was referring to a 4-4-0. But in the context of the song, it's more likely he's trying to put across the idea of a powerful BIG engine, like a 4-8-2 or 4-8-4, not some diminutive holdover from the 1900's.
But of course, part of the fun of songs and poetry is we can put our own meanings into them. The Beatles wrote a song about an amusement park ride called the "Helter Skelter" and look how that got misinterpreted.
Another Hank Snow song about a train that never was:
http://www.youtube.com/user/steemtrayn
Everybody has overlooked a 8 Wheeler that pulled a lot of Passenger trains and Freight trains. a 2-6-0
CHUCK
When I think of a more modern big 8-wheeler on the rails, I think of this.
Lyon_Wonder wrote: When I think of a more modern 8-wheeler on the rails, I think of this.
When I think of a more modern 8-wheeler on the rails, I think of this.
But ain't that a sixteen wheeler?
IRONHORSE77 wrote:Everybody has overlooked a 8 Wheeler that pulled a lot of Passenger trains and Freight trains. a 2-6-0CHUCK
Well but I don't recall a Mogul being called an "eight wheeler", and by 1950 it wasn't "big" either. A few NE railroads used a few 2-6-0's on commuter trains, but it was more of a branchline engine.
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