Flintlock76 Amazing. In a way, it reminds me of the change of appearance of the battleships salvaged from Pearl Harbor and repaired and refitted. They called them "The Pearl Harbor Ghosts." They got their revenge at Suragao Strait in 1944, but that's another story.
Amazing. In a way, it reminds me of the change of appearance of the battleships salvaged from Pearl Harbor and repaired and refitted.
They called them "The Pearl Harbor Ghosts." They got their revenge at Suragao Strait in 1944, but that's another story.
The rebuilding of the battleships from Pearl Harbor is an interesting comparison, having occurred only a short time after the rebuilding of the second batch of 3751 class.
A good reference to these is Battlships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970 by Siegfried Breyer. This is illustrated by line drawings to a constant scale and illustrates ships at various stages of their lives, in both side elevation and in plan view. One of the best examples was California, which looked like a WWI battlship before Pearl Harbor but looked more like a contempoary South Dakota class after rebuilding. The replacement of the secondary armament with twin 5"/38 turrets provided a useful anti-aircraft capability on many of the rebuilds, including California.
Peter
Overmod kgbw49 Might they have needed a small insert to the boiler and perhaps a new frame or extended frame to fit four 80-inch drivers where 73-inch drivers used to be? The rebuild in '41 involved a new cast engine bed with roller bearings. To my knowledge the boiler was not enlarged. 3751 was the last to be rebuilt for an interesting reason. She was modified with a Batz high-speed lead truck (with larger wheels), improvements to valve motion, etc. as protect power for the Super Chief in 1936. Consequently by the time of the 'second' rebuild she got the benefit of all the revealed wisdom from both the first and second 'batches'. I believe there are contemporary accounts of the detail rebuilding in the trade press, as there is for the late-Forties second rebuilding of the awesome C&NW H locomotives, but I cannot find it on a phone. Here is a modeler's reference which pointedly says nothing about boiler mods: http://sfrhms.org/files/ThompsonJohn/4-8-4%20Clinic/4-8-4%20Clinic.pdf
kgbw49 Might they have needed a small insert to the boiler and perhaps a new frame or extended frame to fit four 80-inch drivers where 73-inch drivers used to be?
The rebuild in '41 involved a new cast engine bed with roller bearings. To my knowledge the boiler was not enlarged.
3751 was the last to be rebuilt for an interesting reason. She was modified with a Batz high-speed lead truck (with larger wheels), improvements to valve motion, etc. as protect power for the Super Chief in 1936. Consequently by the time of the 'second' rebuild she got the benefit of all the revealed wisdom from both the first and second 'batches'.
I believe there are contemporary accounts of the detail rebuilding in the trade press, as there is for the late-Forties second rebuilding of the awesome C&NW H locomotives, but I cannot find it on a phone. Here is a modeler's reference which pointedly says nothing about boiler mods:
http://sfrhms.org/files/ThompsonJohn/4-8-4%20Clinic/4-8-4%20Clinic.pdf
That Thompson paper is a good resource for individual 3751 class locomotives.
While the boiler wasn't lengthened, the smokbox was lengthened. Sadly I can't quote a number of inches, because while the rebuilt locomotive drawing shows a distance from the tubeplate to the centre of the blastpipe, the original locomotive does not quote that figure.
However, on the original locomotive, the access hatch for the superheater header takes up most of the space between the stack and the tubeplate, while on the rebuild, it occupies only about half the space. This can be seen in some photos.
The smokebox on the 3765 was even longer, however...
kgbw49Might they have needed a small insert to the boiler and perhaps a new frame or extended frame to fit four 80-inch drivers where 73-inch drivers used to be?
We will take the "W"!
Meanwhile, a question popped in to my head regarding the rebuilding of the 73-inch-drivered 3751 class in to 80-inch drivered locomotives.
Might they have needed a small insert to the boiler and perhaps a new frame or extended frame to fit four 80-inch drivers where 73-inch drivers used to be?
I know the Missouri Pacific needed to do an insert when they converted their 63-inch-drivered Berkshires to 75-inch-delivered Northerns.
kgbw49 Roger that, '76! Crossing the "T"!
Roger that, '76! Crossing the "T"!
M636C,
Thank you for such great historical information! Just as a follow up to that I linked to a couple of photos of 3751-class locomotives for comparison.
Here is a builder's photo of ATSF 3764 as built in 1927:
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/628000/
Here is ATSF 3761 as rebuilt in 1946:
https://www.kshs.org/km/items/view/61553
This shows how extensive the rebuilding of the 3751 class was - my goodness, they almost don't look like the same class of locomotive!
kgbw49 Agree M636C! The ATSF "little" 4-8-4s were not very little, just as the UP 800-814 were not very little. Santa Fe's mechanical department sure knew what they were doing when they rebuilt the 3751-3764.
Agree M636C! The ATSF "little" 4-8-4s were not very little, just as the UP 800-814 were not very little.
Santa Fe's mechanical department sure knew what they were doing when they rebuilt the 3751-3764.
kgbw49 Here is the "little" 80-inch-drivered Santa Fe Baldwin 3751 in 2010. It is about a 1 minute film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eggYBVAYiI And this one just for fun - paced down the middle of the I-10 Freeway - an 11-minute film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp-b4Ce4Mf4
Here is the "little" 80-inch-drivered Santa Fe Baldwin 3751 in 2010.
It is about a 1 minute film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eggYBVAYiI
And this one just for fun - paced down the middle of the I-10 Freeway - an 11-minute film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp-b4Ce4Mf4
The "little" 3751 class were not that much smaller than the 3765, 3776 and 2900 classes.
Even as built with the smaller driving wheels, the 3751 had the same grate area of 108 square feet, the same maximum boiler diameter of just less than 100 inches and the same length between tubeplates of just under 21 feet..As rebuilt, the 3751 class were about three feet shorter than the later locomotives, due to the boiler having a shorter combustion chamber.
Of course the 3751 class had a lower boiler pressure (230 Lbf/sq in against 300 Lbf/sq in) but had larger cylinders to compensate for this.
Interestingly the 5001 class 2-10-4 and the 3760 class 4-6-4 also had boilers of around 21 feet between tubeplates, and both had grates of the same width, 108 inches, although the 4-6-4 grate was shorter and the 2-10-4 was longer than that on the 4-8-4. The 2-10-4 boiler was bigger in diameter, 104 inches compared to just under 100 inches for the 4-8-4, while the 4-6-4 boiler was 92 inches maximum diameter.
I recall that Bachmann made an HO scale model of the 2-10-4 using the existing boiler and cab moulding for the 4-8-4. It was relatively close to correct, given the small difference in dimensions when reduced to HO scale.
Just imagine her bigger sister's of the 2900s doing that routinely across Kansas hauling named trains like the Chief or Grand Canyon until replaced by diesel.
Incredible. Not only can 3751 move, but it makes it look effortless!
Shadow the Cats owner So the 2900 class was more than likely over 5000 hp or more.
Yeah, I was wondering if that was the case myself, that thing is a beast!
What's is scary is that figure is only about 85 percent of what the 2900s could actually do. Santa Fe was always conservative on ratings to avoid needing helpers if possible. So the 2900 class was more than likely over 5000 hp or more.
Interestingly, 4,590 dbhp is in the ballpark with an ET44AC or SD70ACe-T4, but I would dare to say delivered in a way cooler manner!
Thanks!
'76, of course dbhp is on a curve, but the New Mexico Steam Locomotive & Railway Historical Society has this FAQ page about 2926:
http://www.nmslrhs.org/FAQ/faq.php
It says 2926 produces 4,590 dbhp at 40 MPH.
kgbw49 Here is a link to the 4-8-4 page on steamlocomotive.com Not sure how they pull the data on tractive effort, as Sante Fe rated their 4-8-4 locomotives in the mid-60,000s, but still an interesting table. http://steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-8-4
Here is a link to the 4-8-4 page on steamlocomotive.com
Not sure how they pull the data on tractive effort, as Sante Fe rated their 4-8-4 locomotives in the mid-60,000s, but still an interesting table.
http://steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-8-4
Great list! Thanks!
I couldn't help but notice there's no numbers for drawbar horsepower. Is it because it wasn't as important as tractive effort, or was there no reliable way to measure it at the time?
7j43kLightweight steels? I think perhaps "high strength" steels.
Of course the 'lightweight steel' important as such is the 'High Dynamic' used in the thin-section roller-bearing Timken rods and associated valve gear -- which you will note 2926 is now equipped with. The WPB initially attempted to restrict this based on the 'strategic metal' alloy constituents... hence the fiasco of the N&W J1s and fairly brisk about-face on railroad inability to spec the Timken rods and their bearings as needed.
7j43k Flintlock76 ...lightweight steels. Lightweight steels? I think perhaps "high strength" steels. Ed
Flintlock76 ...lightweight steels.
Lightweight steels?
I think perhaps "high strength" steels.
Ed
Well, the information I've read described them as "lightweight." I'm not a metallurgist by any means but I do know there's different grades of steel for different applications. 2926 is a "war baby" when you comedown to it and the War Production Board was tasked with "who got what" during the war years.
kgbw49If I remember correctly, the 2900s were The Biggest Northern That Ever Was in terms of weight
Certainly the heaviest, due to the wartime shortages of lightweight steels.
Can't wait to see that big-barreled Baldwin blasting up the mainline!
If I remember correctly, the 2900s were The Biggest Northern That Ever Was in terms of weight of locomotive and tender, with the Northern Pacific A-5 class (another Baldwin) coming in a close second.
mudchickenThe fact that six of those 30 WW2 era beasts still survive is amazing.
The Santa Fe was pretty generous in donating retired steam engines, so were some other 'roads like the Union Pacific and the Nickle Plate. Too bad we can't say the same for some others.
Flintlock76 And those campaign ribbons on the cab? Those are the American Theater of Operations Medal (WW2) and the National Defense Medal. Makes sense, we wouldn't have won WW2 without locomotives like 2926. Thanks Mr. Jones!
And those campaign ribbons on the cab? Those are the American Theater of Operations Medal (WW2) and the National Defense Medal. Makes sense, we wouldn't have won WW2 without locomotives like 2926.
Thanks Mr. Jones!
You are welcome, Wayne. Thank you so much for reminding us about those campaign ribbons.
I can't wait to see those sexy 80" drivers spinning at high speed once again. The tender trucks are the same type used on the PRR S1, looking forward to seeing them traveling at higher speed!
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
The fact that six of those 30 WW2 era beasts still survive is amazing. Just reminded that only one DRGW standard gage steam engine survives and it was a relatively small engine. Wonder if they will let it out on Glorietta hill or find somewhere to turn that beast?
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