The first time I saw the picture of the local in TRAINS, I came to the same conclusion.
CSSHEGEWISCHre Line.
Maybe Insull (owner of the South Shore and the power behind Commonwealth Edison who owned C&IM) had them adopt a modified design. Why pay money money for two designs when one will do. After all, they both carry passengers.
LONGEVITY OF THE 4-4-0
It should be remembered that the 4-4-0 was one of the earliest types to be built (1837) and one of the last types to be used. Remember that the Canadian Pacific operated three 4-4-0's on the Chipman-Norton branch until late 1959 because of weak bridges. I was one of the many railfans of that time that made the pilgramage to New Brunswick to see the three 4-4-0's. In May 1959 I had the pleasure of photographng all three, riding the cab of A2Q 144, and making the round trip in the mixed train. What was remarkable about the 4-4-0's was that they were producing revenue for a transcontinental railroad stretching from the Atlantic to the Pacific, not some backwoods shortline. Surprisingly, coal mining was a reason for the existence of the branch. During the ride to Chipman the mixed train stopped at a coal mine to pick-up a loaded hopper. Actually, the 144 was not very powerful and her boiler was not good at the time. The engineer said that four loaded hoppers or eight empties plus the wood combine was about all the 4-4-0 could handle. Nevertheless, steam was dead in most of the United States and Canada at the time but A1E 29, A2M 136 and A2Q 144 kept on working just as they had when built in 1887, 1883 and 1886, respectively. All three were preserved.
The aforementioned C&IM coaches looked like de-motored escapees from the South Shore Line.
Overmod, Everything has a prototyo, evan Thomas !
C&IM #502 1928
George Drury wrote that these were the last three Americans built for any railroad in North America. Yet, as Drury notes, this purchase wasn't a fluke. The railroad still ran a Springfield-Peoria passenger service daily and even upgraded its passenger car fleet by buying six steel passenger cars. The three "light, modern, efficient" locomotives "were all that was necessary for C&IM's two- and three- car trains" on the schedule, according to Drury, and could even be double-headed in a pinch.
By the late 1940s, passenger traffic had withered and 501 was sold for scrap. The last passenger train ran in 1953 and the surviving pair of 4-4-0s went to the scrapyard as well
The Baldwin specs addressed a service that ran on 90 lb/yard (45 kg/metre) rail, met 16 deg curves, and scaled 2% grades. Originally delivered with 63" (1,600 mm) drivers and tenders weighing 95,500 lb (43,318 kg) when carrying 8 tons of coal (7.3 metric tons), the engines acquired thicker tires and larger tenders
c&im 4-4-0 - Bing images
The turret casing is handled differently on the bigger N class Pacifics than on the two smaller engines.
http://www.ebpm.com/rr/bigpix/rrsteam070b.jpg
I just assumed the hump was, as stated, a sheet-metal cover over the top rear of the boiler. (It is not a steam drum or indication of unusual firebox modifications during the conversion in the '20s).
The reports I've read seem to indicate that Lackawanna superheated many of their engines very early, within a decade and a half of Schmidt's introduction. I think that someone more experienced in 'things DL&W' would know this definitively. Perhaps Jeremiah Segrue's book on the 'streamlined' N class (ELHS Locomotive Study #2) has some coverage of the smaller locomotives too -- I have not read it.
Paul Milenkovic What is that lump on top of the firebox for both locomotives? Is that for the in-transit Internet and passenger entertainment screens?
What is that lump on top of the firebox for both locomotives?
Is that for the in-transit Internet and passenger entertainment screens?
George Drury in caption to a photo of DLW 938 (fortunately free of wing themed shrouding) states "a shroud over the turret and pop valves".
Peter
Paul MilenkovicOf course the valves and cylinders are new -- they have those wing decals on them.
The point is that these aren't converted cylinders; they're new one-piece castings under the lagging. I'm tempted to say they deserve to carry wings...
Overmod Paul Milenkovic This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves? There is more that has been modernized on that 4-4-0 than that. steamlocomotive.com says there were ten 4-4-0s with the Baker gear (we can probably date the actual era from the style of short Baker frane used), all, as suspected, rebuilt from Camelbacks. Only 988 was given a 'party dress' but clearly doesn't have the 'Universal steam chest' piston-valve conversion many of the Lackawanna engines got when superheated; these look like the set described for locomotive 992 -- cast steel 21" cylinders with 10" valves. I would presume some care was taken to balance their relatively small drivers to make best use of the new cylinders and valve gear, which have to be done if the best ultimately put on any USA 4-4-0... Incidentally, to see the difference possible with one additional driving axle (and some sets of wings - for fun, see if you can spot 'em all) https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw1011.jpg These look like new cylinders, too.
Paul Milenkovic This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?
There is more that has been modernized on that 4-4-0 than that.
steamlocomotive.com says there were ten 4-4-0s with the Baker gear (we can probably date the actual era from the style of short Baker frane used), all, as suspected, rebuilt from Camelbacks. Only 988 was given a 'party dress' but clearly doesn't have the 'Universal steam chest' piston-valve conversion many of the Lackawanna engines got when superheated; these look like the set described for locomotive 992 -- cast steel 21" cylinders with 10" valves. I would presume some care was taken to balance their relatively small drivers to make best use of the new cylinders and valve gear, which have to be done if the best ultimately put on any USA 4-4-0...
Incidentally, to see the difference possible with one additional driving axle (and some sets of wings - for fun, see if you can spot 'em all)
https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw1011.jpg
These look like new cylinders, too.
Of course the valves and cylinders are new -- they have those wing decals on them.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Since I first read about them in the Quadrant Press book, I have tried to find the V-speed information for these Lackawanna engines. I did get to ask Otto Kuhler if his examination was successful; he just laughed...
I have been told that when he first saw these locomotives Otto Kuhler looked quite closely at the streamlining and on being asked what he was looking for, he said that he was looking for the mechanism that flapped the wings - I assume that is the reference above.
There was a DLW Hudson at the 1939/40 Worlds Fair (numbered "1940") that had a slightly toned down version of this styling...
To return to the D&H 4-4-0s, steamlocomotive.com suggests that these were superheated when rebuilt to a rear cab, but 445 really doesn't look as if this was done at the time of the photo.
Paul MilenkovicThis satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?
That Lackawanna 4-4-0 wasn't the only engine they put those wings on.
Guess how fast they disappeared when the president of the 'road who had them installed retired and left the company?
This satire of streamlining detracts from noticing that a 4-4-0 has Walschaerts gear driving piston valves?
Or is this Baker gear?
No discussion of wide-firebox 4-4-0s is quite complete without the Lackawanna's streamlined* locomotive. Which could almost be said to lend a new semantic meaning to 'late' 4-4-0 designs...
https://www.steamlocomotive.com/types/streamlined/dlw988.jpg
*Reminds me a bit about a sort of entertainment place on Tortola, BVI: if you know the idea, no explanation is necessary; if you do not, no explanation is possible.
On the other hand, this might be the most modern 4-4-0 (not counting the Schools class in Britain)...
IA and eastern What other 4-4-0s had the grate above the drivers. Gary
What other 4-4-0s had the grate above the drivers. Gary
While looking for something else entirely, I found:
photo of DELAWARE & HUDSON 445 4-4-0 CARBONDALE PA 1937 | Carbondale, Train posters, Photo (pinterest.com.au)
D&H 445 looks superficially similar to the Reading D-11 and I first thought it was a photo of a D-11. I suspect this is a rebuild from a Camelback, since it has slide valves and inside Stephenson valve gear, but the cab looks relatively modern.
But is one more wide firebox conventional 4-4-0...
The Reading locomotives discussed earlier were class D-11. There were ten other classes D-1 to D-10 that all had wide (Wootten) fireboxes over the driving wheels, but these were all Camelback types. Presumably the other anthracite roads had similar wide firebox 4-4-0s in Camelback configuration.
However, the Atlantic type was more suited to wide firebox designs and large roads like the Pennsylvania and Santa Fe and the Harriman roads like SP and UP had a number of 4-4-2 designs that took the place of a wide firebox 4-4-0.
As observed earlier, older 4-4-0s were rebuilt (like PRR 1233 and NYC 999) and lasted a long time, and the C&IM 4-4-0s, the last built for a US Railroad, had narrow fireboxes, looking much like the older locomotives as rebuilt.
JuniathaSara wrote "There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)"
Mamma mia! All that carnage!
Anyone want to take a trip with me back to a saner time and place?
And, I think there's a few 4-4-0's here, and maybe a Camelback!
Let's roll up the good old Northern Railroad of New Jersey, grab a cup of coffee and light up a "Fatima" or a "Sweet Caporal" and here we go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzTAGCUUMtk
Sara TÜbrigens: If you like chaos videos of road traffic, just check the "We love Russia" series,
Um, I watched the video, and now I just have to ask.
How did the Russians manage to drive the Germans out? I mean really!
All that road carnage reminds me of what a Czech co-worker of mine told me Warsaw Pact combined military training exercises were like. Total chaos!
Sara wrote "There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)"
... but rather with road / railroad crossings, like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPmE6Frgwc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoIme0EGeNg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE_6KT4YMZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-22Gt8Pkn8o
sorry, not all are train related
=J=
Flintlock,
I believe Juni refers to her having made that big move and everything got packed in boxes. She seems not to have had time (or the good will) to unpack everything and put it up the way it was when they lived in Berlin. Unfortunately I only got to cross her way when we both lived in Munich, and that was only short.
Übrigens: If you like chaos videos of road traffic, just check the "We love Russia" series, unbelievable things happen there (not all road traffic but most of them). It tells you things that could be valuable if you came to Russia by car, but then again after seing a number of these videos you don't go there by car. Just a moment I will pick up some link: (note that today they can buy Audi BMW and Mercedes, but my old word applies: such cars you not just have to be able to buy but you have to be able to drive them, too!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPguPM_7vH0
There are many, many, many more of them (and there are some from the USA too, pssht)
Sara
Juniatha(If I should do so, I first have to dig it out from my boxes, oh dear!)
I know what you mean! Every so often I have to look something up in the archives here in the Fortress Flintlock. I'm surprised I haven't gotten black lung disease from blowing the dust off books I haven't looked at in years!
OvermodWayne: 80 has been a parking lot for over 30 years
Mod-man, if you want to have some fun, Google "The Route 80 Rant Page," just like that. Trust me, you'll have a ball!
Last year's top rant, from December:
"Damn, Santa Claus must have crashed his sled, there's dead deer all over the road by Hackettstown!"
rixflixmy dad began producing historic souvenirs under the Penncraft name. Cannons
And I've got a cute little Penncraft twelve-pounder on a garrison carriage I bought in the Valley Forge souvenir shop back in the 60's! It's held up well, looks as good as the day I bought it! Your family did nice work!
One can never have too many souvenir cannons!
... maybe I shall post my 4-4-0, 27 class? It didn't have such a wiiiiiiide boiler but enough pressure for a four-cylinder compound, especially because on a 4-4-0 it is so easy to put in. I hope it looks 'modern' enough - though designed to run on European branch lines, namely the coast lines at the Baltic sea: all flat and no heavy trains. The Brits would have it run up to ... whatever.
(If I should do so, I first have to dig it out from my boxes, oh dear!)
Juniatha
I'll get to the 4-4-0 (remember the topic?) business first. Bert Pennypacker describes the (end cab!) Reading D-11s locomotives as being the last 4-4-0's built for a major US railroad. The southern shortline and the C&IM were apparently not major enough for Bert. True, C&IM was essentially a utility company's conveyor belt.
(rixflix)
As I posted earlier, the Reading D-11 was a modern design, while the C&IM 4-4-0s were similar in appearence to late 19th Century locomotives with their narrow fireboxes between the driving wheels, although of course, they were superheated with Walschearts Valve gear and piston valves.
Sara asked earlier what a maximum power 4-4-0 would look like. With the D11 in mind I thought what the boiler she described would look like. My mind wandered a little and settled on the Reading I 10 2-8-0. This was almost short enough for a 4-4-0 but big enough for a 4-8-4 (as Reading proved when they rebuilt most of the 2-8-0s into T 1 4-8-4s, keeping the whole firebox and the 96" diameter boiler at the rear tubeplate). Eight feet in diameter and only 13'6" between tubeplates. (The 4-8-4 version was lengthened to 20 feet between tubeplates).
So just look at a photo of the I 10 and imagine the boiler on a (somewhat stretched) D 11 chassis and there it is - a Superpower 4-4-0....
Now back to the current discussions.
What are the German terms for foamer and trainspotter?
When my family's Penn hardware company fell victim to industry consolidation, Kwikset and unionization, my dad began producing historic souvenirs under the Penncraft name. Cannons, musket letter openers, Liberty Bells etc. for Philly, Gettysburg, Valley Forge and National Park Service tourist traps. Cast iron parts came from local foundries but in the beginning he would cast his own lead antimony parts in our basement, thus avoiding the zinc rot problem. Don't know what it did for our long term health, as we would be eating breakfast directly above the reheating lead fumes. Penncraft kept all us kids employed and remunerated on a piece-rate basis. No more allowances. I used to kid my dad with "who's buying all this stuff?" and he'd answer, "you'd better hope they keep doing it." When the Asian knock-offs started competing, some of their cannon chassis' had "Penncraft USA" cast on their undersides. They used that zinc with antique brown plating that you see in similar tchotchkes. They just rot away. Penncraft survives today, now owned by my sister.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
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