Trains.com

Lima proposed NG 2-6-6-4

3425 views
20 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2011
  • 130 posts
Lima proposed NG 2-6-6-4
Posted by IA and eastern on Sunday, March 28, 2021 5:14 AM

Lima proposed NG 2-6-6-4. Would it have a good ideal and who might had a use for such a locomotive. Gary

  • Member since
    September 2011
  • 5,384 posts
Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, March 28, 2021 8:58 PM

There were a couple of narrow gage 2-6-6-2 s used in the US.  When did Lima propose this?  By the 30s, there was a shortage of business on the NG, not a shortage of locos.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Denver / La Junta
  • 10,271 posts
Posted by mudchicken on Sunday, March 28, 2021 9:58 PM

Uintah was one that fed rumors for years. But getting around a 66 degree curve? There is a Trains article on that somewhere in the past. I thought they were loyal to Baldwin...

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,044 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, March 28, 2021 10:48 PM

The Tweetsie was considering an NG 2-6-6-2 at one time.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 17,649 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, March 29, 2021 9:39 AM

IA and eastern
Lima proposed NG 2-6-6-4. Would it have a good ideal and who might had a use for such a locomotive.

The only conceivable use I can imagine is for export, and specifically for export as a 'one-and-a-half-GELSA-Berkshire' (or 4-8-4) for heavy service on meter-gauge in Brazil (and later, perhaps, Bolivia?) -- someplace that would value and presumably be able to care for contemporarily-modern steam power and 'all that implies'.

Almost anywhere else a Garratt or Meyer would be a preferable operating solution.

African railroads at as wide as Cape gauge had little use for Mallet-pattern chassis -- while part of that might be a British Empiyah thing, the reports I remember seeing were on the technical merits.

What IS the source for this claim, and how is it documented in that source?

There is an enormous practical difference implied in the increase from 2-6-6-2 to 2-6-6-4, presumably with large firebox entirely behind drivers, unlike the Challenger-style configuration.  It would likely be limited to narrow gauge of relatively heavy construction, perhaps with relatively good civil engineering; absence of sharp or poorly-transitioned curves might follow.

  • Member since
    May 2011
  • 130 posts
Posted by IA and eastern on Monday, March 29, 2021 6:23 PM

In  the book articulated steam locomoticves vol 2 on page 245 is the drawing of this locomotive. Gary

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: US
  • 595 posts
Posted by rixflix on Monday, March 29, 2021 8:59 PM

I just imagined one on the East Broad Top. Would probably have needed re-engineered wyes at Mt. Union, Orbisonia and Robertsdale. Not having the specs, I'd guess that Pogue bridge would've been sufficient. Clearances in Sideling Hill tunnel and curvature elsewhere might have presented a problem.

I'll leave the logging roads and export business to their respective mavens.  

Rick 

   

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

  • Member since
    September 2011
  • 5,384 posts
Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:30 PM

What about the turntable length at Rockhill Furnace/Orbisonia?

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 1,768 posts
Posted by MMLDelete on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 10:38 PM

mudchicken,

A 66 degree curve! ??

A curve that changes direction 66 degrees in the space of 100 feet?!?!

(Maybe you accidentally tapped the 6 twice?)

Isn't just 6 degrees really tight for railroad track?

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: US
  • 595 posts
Posted by rixflix on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 10:54 PM

[quote user="MidlandMike"]

What about the turntable length at Rockhill Furnace/Orbisonia? 

Not knowing the wheelbase or length, I couldn't guess. 

I was there once for the last run of the season. It was already dark when they dumped and poked out the fire before moving the mike onto the table. I was allowed to help with the armstrong lever. Then they opened a valve on the left steam chest. There was an enormous roar and steam went horizontally between the roundhouse and the paint shed and into the night. Memory fails, but I think they used a motorized unit to shove her into a stall for the winter. Everything else was unforgettable.

Rick

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 17,649 posts
Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 1:05 AM

Lithonia Operator
A 66 degree curve! ?? A curve that changes direction 66 degrees in the space of 100 feet?!?!

Read 'em and weep, kiddo...

http://www.drgw.net/info/UintahRailway

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,318 posts
Posted by M636C on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 2:02 AM

Overmod

 

 
IA and eastern
Lima proposed NG 2-6-6-4. Would it have a good ideal and who might had a use for such a locomotive.

 

The only conceivable use I can imagine is for export, and specifically for export as a 'one-and-a-half-GELSA-Berkshire' (or 4-8-4) for heavy service on meter-gauge in Brazil (and later, perhaps, Bolivia?) -- someplace that would value and presumably be able to care for contemporarily-modern steam power and 'all that implies'.

 

Almost anywhere else a Garratt or Meyer would be a preferable operating solution.

African railroads at as wide as Cape gauge had little use for Mallet-pattern chassis -- while part of that might be a British Empiyah thing, the reports I remember seeing were on the technical merits.

What IS the source for this claim, and how is it documented in that source?

There is an enormous practical difference implied in the increase from 2-6-6-2 to 2-6-6-4, presumably with large firebox entirely behind drivers, unlike the Challenger-style configuration.  It would likely be limited to narrow gauge of relatively heavy construction, perhaps with relatively good civil engineering; absence of sharp or poorly-transitioned curves might follow.

 

While Africa was not fertile ground for Mallet locomotives, The Netherlands East Indies and particularly their State Railways were big fans of Mallet types.

At first there were 33 2-6-6-0 non superheated tank locomotives that had rather odd looking tanks sitting clear of the boiler in both vertical and horizontal directions  built from 1904 to 1911 from German and Dutch builders.

These were superseded by 2-12-2 superheated tank engines.

Th Mallets were followed by two orders of cape gauge superheated Alco 2-8-8-0s in 1916 and 1919 totalling 20 units. These looked like scaled down N&W  Y-3 (minus the trailing truck, of course). Ten more were built in Europe in the early 1920s by three different builders, but these looked distinctively European.

There were followed in the mid to late 1920s by thirty somewhat smaller 2-6-6-0s, built by two European builders, the Dutch firm of Werkspoor being the only one in common between the two types.

All of these lasted through the Japanese occupation from 1941 and came into the stock of the Indonesian State Railways after WWII.

I'm sure that after some persuasion, they would look at a 2-6-6-4, but they'd probably have follow up orders built in Europe...

Peter

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 17,649 posts
Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 3:40 AM

M636C
I'm sure that after some persuasion, they would look at a 2-6-6-4, but they'd probably have follow up orders built in Europe...

Why would they bother?  If they're using anything with no trailing truck, the basic Y-class lessons -- low end overhang, as much weight on drivers as possible concordant with bidirectional guiding; firebox largely over drivers just as with Challengers; easy IP injection for easy running in compound.  No need for deep firebox entirely behind drivers, with extra carrying axle for the weight of circulators or accommodation to higher pressures. No length increase of the rigid chassis.  No increased construction cost of frame or bed.  They won't appreciate what it would give them: higher efficient horsepower at speed.

I would argue that a properly-'boosted' Y6 did most of what the Y7 would practically have done, and much more flexibly and efficiently.  Once you can run 'balanced compound' at 45mph you have what N&W needed for almost all its time freight... with those roller-rod 2-6-6-4s used for whatever traffic needs stable speed at high horsepower, and it is interesting to consider just what those traffic needs might be (and whether they apply or could be applied in countries built out in narrow-gauge in the various ways seen historically...)

Outside select parts of South America, I see little optimal use for a 'modern' 2-6-6-4 to replace older steam compared to competing forms of locomotive -- particularly a well-engineered locomotive with comparable engines, but patterned as an efficient 2-6-6-2.

  • Member since
    May 2011
  • 130 posts
Posted by IA and eastern on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:18 AM

Lima was proposing a four wheel trailing truck for almost everything. Loree proposed in 1917 that Rio Grande buy seven 2-6-6-2s for the Marshal pass line and the trustee that took after WW1 pushed for 2-6-6-2s but the board said no to both ideals I wonder if Lima heard of this and proposed this locomotive. Gary

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 4,318 posts
Posted by M636C on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 7:18 AM

Overmod

 

 
Lithonia Operator
A 66 degree curve! ?? A curve that changes direction 66 degrees in the space of 100 feet?!?!

 

Read 'em and weep, kiddo...

 

http://www.drgw.net/info/UintahRailway

 

 

I note that link indicates Uintah 51 at 246 000 lbs was "the heaviest narrow gauge steam locomotive ever built."

The SS Java 1919 Alco 2-8-8-0s were 294 100 lbs and the European copies heavier....

But indeed those curves were sharp.

Peter

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 12,504 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 10:09 AM

Those curves on the Uintah sound like the curves that I am quite familiar with on the CTA.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 1,768 posts
Posted by MMLDelete on Thursday, April 1, 2021 4:37 PM

Overmod

 

 
Lithonia Operator
A 66 degree curve! ?? A curve that changes direction 66 degrees in the space of 100 feet?!?!

 

Read 'em and weep, kiddo...

 

http://www.drgw.net/info/UintahRailway

 

That's astounding! Thanks for the link. Now THERE is a place where the engineer can look back and see the president dining through the window!

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 17,649 posts
Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 2, 2021 6:09 AM

Lithonia Operator
Now THERE is a place where the engineer can look back and see the president dining through the window!

THERE is a place where the engineer might be able to converse with the President dining through the window... Whistling

  • Member since
    September 2011
  • 5,384 posts
Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, April 2, 2021 9:18 PM

Except with the 7 1/2 per cent grade on that hairpin curve, the engineer would have been looking over the roof of the diner.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 17,649 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 3, 2021 6:14 PM

MidlandMike
Except with the 7 1/2 per cent grade on that hairpin curve, the engineer would have been looking over the roof of the diner.

I didn't say he wouldn't have to shout... Smile

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 337 posts
Posted by BEAUSABRE on Sunday, June 20, 2021 12:44 PM

The Mexican narrow gauge had 1930's vintage simple 2-6-6-2's. With their Elesco feedwater heaters and smokebox front mounted air compressors, George Drury said they "looked like what the C&O would have had for a narrow gauge division." 

Having said that, the four wheel trailing truck was a hallmark of Lima's "Superpower" concept - which meant horsepower at speed. None of the proposed narrow gauge operations for tender articulateds fit the definition of "high speed", so 2-6-6-2's (C&S and ET&WNC)) and 2-8-8-2's (D&RGW) would have met the need and been less expensive - and the trailing truck was as much to guide the locomotive in reverse as it was to support the firebox.

The narrow gauge 2-6-6-4 was all part of Lima's fixation and over-specification as demonstrated in the 2-6-6-6, which almost never operated at speeds fast enough to generate its potential horsepower. What was needed was tractive force and a 2-6-6-4 or 2-8-8-4 would have done the job nicely for the C&O and VGN. 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy