I should also add that John Weaver is also a railfan, I believe has an O-gauge layout, and at one award ceremony, the AGO presented John with a purplish-red O-gauge boxcar with AGO reporting marks.
My understanding is that B&M's lone E-8 was simply the last locomotive built as part of an E-7 order, which was late in E-7 history, and that the E-8 was delivered because production had stopped on E-7s. And E-7s certainly showed up on the Allouette often, and the E-8 did occasionally show up on Boston - Portland trains.
A curiosity: I had a business trip Boston (Cambridge) - Three Rivers, - Montreal - New York - Boston (Cambridge). The Allouette (Two RDCs) had just been discontiniiued, and the only B&M intercity trains other than its part of the Montrealler-Washingtonian were two round trips to Portland. But the Grand Trunk still ran a Friday and Sunday Montreal - Portland, ME round trip. So I rode the B&M to Portland, shared a taxi between Portland stations with a couple also making the connection, and the GT to Montreal. The only meal service on the train was buffet service in the parlor at the rear of the train, for parlor-car passengers only. One parlor seat was still available, and I paid the conductor the extra fare, and the attendant for a large fish-and-salad sandwich and coffee. Much of the time I stood in the rear vestibule watching the scenery.
The parlor car was named Allouette!
A night in the hotel above the Central Station, then off to Windsor Station and three CP Budds to Three Rivers, a day at the Shrine St/ Anne du Baux Pres (SP?), (sound-system and quiet of the air-conditioning) and a ride in Larry Phelps' Merecedies and a tour of the St. Hyacinth Casavant Freres organ factory before the Washingtonian to New York. The roomette next to mine was occupied by the organsit, choir master, composer John Weaver. who I knew and recorded, first at his first concert at Boston's Church of the Advent when he was 18. (and I was 25)
B&M's lone E8 was specifically bought for the Allouette as part of the pool agreement with CP. CP's units were U.S. built, like most of the Alcos used on CP's lines in Vermont in the early years. The Allouette's engines ran through to Boston, the Red Wings were often turned at White River Junction, getting serviced at Westboro.
CV and B&M switchers at White River Jct. were used to move road engines from Westboro to the White River Jct station, with second and third trick crews (and engines) rotating between B&M and CV assignments. This practice continued well into diesel days.
In the steam days, I rode the Allouette behind a CP Pacifc, Boston to Concord. 1945. The pooling of power continued into the diesel era. Even into the RDC era, when I rode the Allouette with one CP RDC-1 MUed with an RDC-3(?) combine, bag or bag and mail with coach seating.
The three CP E-8s (all A-units) were bought specifically for the Allouette and the Red Wing (the overnight train that I also used), with the B&M using their E-7s or their one E-8. Elsehwere, usual CP power was FP-7s.
Found my photo of the Allouette with a CP E-8 at Concord:
daveklepper 11. Are there still tracks WRJc - W. Lebanon? Amd how far northwest beyond Concord, NH? Why running from the Junction to Boston did we need to stop the train for water at W. Lebanon? Should not this have been done on the Pacific's light move from Concord to the Junction? One explanaition is that the crew forgot! But a better one would be just to give railfans the opportunity to photograph a water stop!
11. Are there still tracks WRJc - W. Lebanon? Amd how far northwest beyond Concord, NH?
Why running from the Junction to Boston did we need to stop the train for water at W. Lebanon? Should not this have been done on the Pacific's light move from Concord to the Junction? One explanaition is that the crew forgot! But a better one would be just to give railfans the opportunity to photograph a water stop!
If the excursion train used the south wye from the Conn River line to Westboro before heading back to Boston, the water spout at Westboro would have been the obvious place to fill the tank. It's only a few hundred feet from the White River Jct. station. Most B&M trains that served White River Jct. swapped power there, so nearly every engine was serviced at Westboro. Depending on the time of day, Canadian Pacific engines off the Conn River line going north may have been around - B&M pooled power on both passenger and freight trains into the 1980s. Central Vermont's roundhouse was northwest of WRJ Union Station.
Thanks RC. You are a real help.
NECR owns the CCRR, which leases the Westboro yard from the NH DOT...I'm not sure if the CCRR is still nominally separate - it certainly is operationally, using a pair of Trackmobiles to service the propane unloading facility and the salt shed.
An earlier posting has C&C owning usasble tracks WRJc. - W. Lebanon, with NECR having trackage rights. Or do I misinterpret?
daveklepper Once thought this photo was to far-gone to rescue, but a day's work removed the scratches, well most of them. But now I don't identify where the ex DL&W Pacific was taking water. Also White River Jc.?
Once thought this photo was to far-gone to rescue, but a day's work removed the scratches, well most of them. But now I don't identify where the ex DL&W Pacific was taking water. Also White River Jc.?
Besides the light bridges, there was a lot of 75# rail on the C&C.
And is it possible that some classes or a class of B&M Pacifics were allowed between Concord and Caremont Junction and others not?
The fantrip Pacific was ex-DL&W. and the B&M had some fairly modern and heavy Pacifics built, I think, in the late 1930s.
There are photos of Pacifics in Sunapee, which was bracketed by covered bridges (Contoocook on the east, Newport on the west). It seems to have depended a lot on whether moguls (and crews) were available. Claremont Jct.'s turntable was too small to turn the bigger engines. The south leg of the wye, since removed, was pretty tight.
Still not satisfied, so:
Post-raii-abandonent, but good to see anyway. I tried improving the color picture, and you can judge for yourself if there is an improvement:
daveklepperAnone care to post some covered-bridge photos?
I took some photos in 2001 of the Contoocook bridge when I visited my old hometown, but they were pre-digital. I found a couple of sites that had photos of this bridge, and another.
https://www.nh.gov/nhdhr/bridges/p21.html
https://www.loc.gov/item/nh0274/
rcdryercdrye wrote the following post 14 hours ago: MidlandMike: The Concord to Clairmont line had a number of wooden covered bridges, and the line was generally restricted to moguls. Actually the main line of the C&C was quite well-maintained, serving as an occasional detour route through WWII for the New Hampshire route (Northern RR) Main Line. On detours some larger B&M locomotives, including Pacifics, were used. The main reason for the Moguls wasn't the C&C "main" but a couple of branches which were very lightly built.
MidlandMike: The Concord to Clairmont line had a number of wooden covered bridges, and the line was generally restricted to moguls.
Actually the main line of the C&C was quite well-maintained, serving as an occasional detour route through WWII for the New Hampshire route (Northern RR) Main Line. On detours some larger B&M locomotives, including Pacifics, were used. The main reason for the Moguls wasn't the C&C "main" but a couple of branches which were very lightly built.
From the book The Concord & Claremont Railroad by Edgar T. Mead, p.35:
"Sometimes a wreck or washout on the high-class Northern line between White River Junction and Concord would force mainline trains over the Claremont Branch. Although big Pacifics were theoretically able to travel the branch, in practice the mainline engine would be replaced at Claremont Junction with doubleheaded Moguls for the run over the mountains."
Edit: In 1961 F. Nelson Blount brought in an ex-CN 4-6-4T, which would have had to travel over some of the covered bridges, but the excursions didn't cross the bridges.
Steam on the North Station commuter fleet was not completely replaced untiil the massive order of Budd RDCs replaced coaches and locomotives, then mostly GP7s and RS3s, but with some Pacifics and more Moguls still in use, in 1955, with the reassigned GP7s and RS3s replacing the last freight steam operations. Also, wood open-platform coaches were still in use until the RDCs took over the suburban operation.
Posted a few years ago, here again was the northbound Ambassador photographed from across the tracks from the first picture:
And after the engine change to a CV Mountain:
And our fan-trip train, with the Pacific on the south end to take our train back to Boston:
MidlandMike The Concord to Clairmont line had a number of wooden covered bridges, and the line was generally restricted to moguls.
The Concord to Clairmont line had a number of wooden covered bridges, and the line was generally restricted to moguls.
The C&C had a daily except Sunday mixed train and a daily gas-electric car right up to the sale to Sam Pinsly in 1955 (Pinsly got the Claremont Street Railway at the same time). Pinsly kept the gas car for another year, and leased some B&M moguls until his own 44-tonners arrived. The remaining portion of the C&C west of Pleasant Street in Claremont is now owned by New England Central (G&W).
I'm pretty sure Dave's picture was taken at Bank in White River Jct., which was the south end of the B&M yard, just about where I-89 crosses over the Conn River today. The wooden road bridge is long gone. The interlocking signal protected the junction of the CV main (right hand track) and the B&M yard lead. Today's Bank is a couple of hundred yards further south, where Vermont Rail Systems' Washington County Railroad (from Newport and St. Johnsbury) joins NECR's ex-CV main. NECR has Claremont-Concord's rights to the ex-B&M Westboro yard in West Lebanon NH, across the Connecticut River.
Forgot! Some under-maintained diesels produced lots of sparks!
There were large cans of water available, nothing else and no reason to be any different than the large number of timber trestles that nearly every large railroad had. Engineers may have had special instructions to avoid sparks up the stack, but such were very rare after coal replaced wood as fuel.
Anone care to post some covered-bridge photos?
How did the RRs handle the fire protection for covered bridges ? Especially this one ?
Ok, that explains it. There was a quite a bit of those types of scenarios scattered around the country. CPR's 4-4-0's in New Brunswick, Wabash last 2 steam holdouts on account of a bridge, New York Central CASO St. Clair branchline and others. Many lines were abandoned or the steam replaced by SW1's or other conforming Diesel.
So thanks to as-built engineering limitations giving us some extra time with the small simple steam locomotives.
You're welcome Vince!
The late Don Ball said that the B&M's Moguls looked like they belonged exactly where they were, in the picturesque towns, hills, and countrysides of New England. They just seemed to fit perfectly.
The towns, hills, and countrysides are still there but alas, no more Moguls.
1955 for a Mogul is pretty darn good for a Class 1. CNR and CPR exceptions. Thanks for that Wayne.
World-Famous White River Junction! Quite the place in it's day with plenty of railroad action and picturesque buildings.
How long did the Moguls last? Excuse me while I run and check the book...
Thumpity-thumpity-thumpity, thumpity-thumpity-thump.
OK, I'm back. The Moguls lasted right to the end of steam on the B&M, 1955, still putting on a show in Boston commuter service and other places until the fires were dropped.
You know, about two years ago I bought a book on the Boston & Maine by Robert Willoughby Jones. I'm not a B&M fan but the book is so well written and beautifully illustrated I couldn't pass it up. The price was right too, which made it even better. Fascinating railroad!
Now that's pretty darn cool. Moguls on the B&M in 1950, and just how much longer would they survive from that time of the picture?
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