I'm surprised that it has taken this long for any general discussion of the fate of 3985. The Railway Magazine from England noted this almost a year ago.
I had the honor, priveledge, and pleasure to meet Feltonhill at a train show around five, maybe six years ago. He told me he still looks in on the Forum from time to time but only posts when he really has something important to contribute.
As do you, I wish he'd stop by more often!
MARTIN A MEGREGIAN3985 was designed for a theoretical speed of 90 mph.
Be careful here. There are two different 'speeds' associated with a design that can be thought of as above the practical "Vne" of a steam design.
One of these is what corresponds to the current FRA requirement of testing 10% above the maximum 'service speed' of a given locomotive. If you look in the UP timetables a few years ago, you'll find both 3985 and 844/8444 'licensed' to run 83mph, and this should in my opinion be taken as the effective maximum service speed -- with at least a tacit understanding that with sufficient 'permission' -- something I wouldn't think would be 'legally' granted easily (I expect Tim Zukas to weigh in coherently on this subject) -- it would be 'safe' to run quicker without encountering some critical speed or potentially catastrophic resonance -- here, nominally to fairly well above 90mph even for the 'slower' of the two designs.
The other 'speed' is the balance speed, the highest practical speed that the engine(s) could turn before damaging augment becomes manifest. (I believe this is the "80mph" represented occasionally in discussions of the Big Boy design -- you wouldn't routinely flirt with this level of unbalance, especially with an articulated locomotive without active damping of lateral motion of the forward engine.)
Note that the corresponding 'first' speed for the N&W J design is 11mph 'legal' (to get the nominal 100mph 'dash' capability); as I recall the critical balance speed works out to something like the equivalent of 140mph (in part due to keeping only minimum overbalance in the mains) but this is a speed the locomotive would never remotely approach in 'practice' even with a valve gear that would tolerate the tribology and inertia problems associated with it. (Ideally feltonhill is still posting here, and will have the exact figures from Glaze's balancing book for the class.)
I wonder what the M/W Department had to say after that run.
3985 was designed for a theoretical speed of 90 mph. During the 1982 Pocatello trip, we witnessed it at 84.5 mph. We were in a rental that topped out at 80. 3985 passed us and left us in the dust. Steve Lee, at dinner confirmed the speedo had broken and they just let her run. The crew clocked it at that speed, not us!
[quote user="kgbw49"]
It will stay nice and dry tucked inside the shop in Cheyenne.
We will probably never see something that large move that fast ever again, though. I had the chance to see it come off of Altamont Pass in 1992 when I was living in Tracy for a short time. I was the only person at the MacArthur Drive crossing. I waited for 3985 heading back eastbound. It swung around the last hilltop, under the 580 overpass, and then came rather quietly down the rest of the grade to the valley floor. When it hit the straightaway along the south side of town, Steve Lee opened the throttle and let-her-roll, and I mean roll. The headlight got real big real fast as it accelerated toward me, and the sound got louder and louder the closer it came. It hit the crossing like rolling thunder - sounding like it would blow in the doors and windows of every nearby building. I could feel the wake of air hit me as it passed. As it rounded the curve toward Stockton, the exhaust boomed like cannon fire. That is my best memory of 3985.
This is not my photo - it is further west from where I was. But a great photo!
https://railpictures.net/photo/278092/
3985 at speed as God, Otto Jabelmann, and the men of ALCo intended:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcOPIaekOU
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BaltACDVisited my engine builder for the race car and watched a dyno pull. Engine was connected to the CVT transmission system that our cars use with the 'driven' clutch being the one that actually transmitted the power to the dyno - just like the 'driven' clutch would be transmitting power to the rear axle. Watching that and knowing what I was looking at was actually happening behind a sheet of 50 thousandths thick aluminum - EYE OPENING!
Suspect you will enjoy some of the 'roller rig' testing that T1 Trust 5550 will undergo after completion... particularly the runs involving high-speed slipping generation, steam distribution at full demand, and instrumented-wheelset testing prior to going to Pueblo...
Flintlock76 That is a whole lot of heavy machinery moving very fast and in proper timing! Absolutely! Talk about mechanical precision and perfection! No wonder steam stays popular. I can't say a diesel doesn't have that level of mechanical genius under the hood, but of course "under the hood" is the big difference, you can't see it. Thanls for the clip kgb!
That is a whole lot of heavy machinery moving very fast and in proper timing!
Absolutely! Talk about mechanical precision and perfection! No wonder steam stays popular. I can't say a diesel doesn't have that level of mechanical genius under the hood, but of course "under the hood" is the big difference, you can't see it.
Thanls for the clip kgb!
Visited my engine builder for the race car and watched a dyno pull. Engine was connected to the CVT transmission system that our cars use with the 'driven' clutch being the one that actually transmitted the power to the dyno - just like the 'driven' clutch would be transmitting power to the rear axle.
Watching that and knowing what I was looking at was actually happening behind a sheet of 50 thousandths thick aluminum - EYE OPENING!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD kgbw49 3985 at speed as God, Otto Jabelmann, and the men of ALCo intended: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcOPIaekOU That is a whole lot of heavy machinery moving very fast and in proper timing!
kgbw49 3985 at speed as God, Otto Jabelmann, and the men of ALCo intended: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcOPIaekOU
kgbw493985 at speed as God, Otto Jabelmann, and the men of ALCo intended: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcOPIaekOU
It was wonderful to see it come through the western suburbs (Wheaton) at speed.
As long as it doesn't go to the scrapper or out with the garbage (Can you imagine? Poor garbagemen!) there's always hope for a comeback. Hope springs eternal, but don't try holding your breath eternally!
Shove 3985 to the back of your mind and forget it exists, it'll be easier that way.
According to a Sean Graham-White post on Loconotes, 3985 was retired from the active roster (computer) on 2/7/2020. That pretty much confirms there will be no efforts to restore it to service soon.
So someone posted something and it's a fact now? I have said it a hundred times. Unless you hear it from Ed Dickens then don't believe it. Anything else is just gossip.
As someone who has visited the Union Pacific steam shop on a regular basis since the late 80's I will give you my two cents on this issue. People seem to forget that years of substantal mechanical work was already given to the #3985 when it went into overhaul in late 2010. I believe it had 4 solid years of time and money thrown at it before the #844 needed a lot of mechanical work which stopped work on the Challenger. After the #844 was finished it wasn't long before the Big Boy project started taking shape. All work stopped on the Challenger.
Ed has stated in a 2018 video that if he gets his way, he would like to see the Challenger run again. Furthermore as stated in the video he said he ordered duplicate parts for the Challenger (as parts for the Big Boy were being made) as many of the parts on the Challenger are identical to the Big Boy.
So where does that leave us now? Offically there is no plans to restore or run the Challenger in the near future. Really why would you want to? You have two fully functional steam locomotives. The crew just went through years of Hell to get that running. I am sure they are not eager to jump into another massive overhaul.
Does that mean the Challenger is done for? No. It's a back burner project on those days when there is nothing to do. Everyone I have talked to on the crew has said the same thing. The locomotive needs a proper frame up restoration like the Big Boy had. That will take a lot of money and a lot of time.
I personally don't see a restoration happening for several years. It also wouldn't surprise me if the #3985 was donated to some other organization along with the parts for someone else to get going. Last I heard the DD40X needed truck work as was only running on a single engine. I believe both E-8's are operational but the E8-B unit is not. The CNW F units need a lot of work and there are no plans to restore them.
The Rio Grande F9B went west quite sometime ago and has been rebuilt into a rotary snowplow power unit.
And that is the reality of any corporate steam program. Whether it lives or dies depends on who's sitting in the CEO's seat.
Certainly that CEO could be overruled by the board of directors and the chairman of the same, but I don't think it's happened yet.
As Steve Lee, former head of the UP steam program put it to his crew, "Every year is our last year!" meaning if they couldn't make a case for the continuation of the steam program as a corporate tool they wouldn't be around for long.
As it is, UP's steam program belongs to the "Executive Department," so they and no others have the say-so as to whether it lives or dies.
Agree. Although UP stock, operating ratio and profits are riding high, that is based on cost-cutting, as revenues are declining and the outlook for 2020 is a soft "meh" at best. Given that investor opinion is a major factor in corporate decisions and investors have myopia and are largely NOT railfans, don't be surprised at a NS-style tragic ending lurking in the wings.
Ample threads here, and elsewhere, discussing the situation.
When work is done to 3985, it will be to the full standard done on 844 and 4014: full teardown and restoration of all devices and systems, with all changes made for easier maintenance and documentation of materials.
There is no point in spending all that money now, after the expenses incurred on the 'hurry-up' completion of 4014, simply in order to have a 'third' active large steam engine. Any residual question about the economics of this was removed with the advent of the lower margins and tighter need for 'economies' inherent in PSR.
This does NOT mean 3985 will be ignored, or retired for permanent static display. It simply means the work will not be done while 4014 and 844 are capable of fulfilling the publicity requirements ... which they do, in spades.
I do think a TRAINS staffer could get a coherent statement out of Ed Dickens, and perhaps the higher-ups to whom he reports, about the detailed plans for the next few years -- or the present absence of same, if so. It would certainly make an interesting article if fact-based and neutrally reported.
On the other hand, groups genuinely interested in seeing 3985 restored to operation need only 'put their money where their mouth is' and raise funds. Beyond a certain point, I would not be surprised to see UP quietly contributing, even if no more than 'resources at cost', toward either a full mechanical restoration or an ongoing progressive reworking of the components not subject to 1472-day inspection or 'degradation in storage'. But do not expect that of them as some kind of free commitment...
As many of us (or all of us) know, 3985 is done for good:
As Ed has said, 3985 is really worn, and as of now, it is still the policy for only two engines to run. Ultimately, I agree and disagree. 3985 has held a great career until her last run, and ultimately it was her mechanical problems that took her down for good. While she will be missed, it's great to know that 4014 is a worthy replacement for her. However, I still believe that just because two steam engines are running doesn't mean that a third can join. Of course, that depends on the amount of people working with the crew, but if there is indeed enough, why not bring it back?
Ultimately, the fate of 3985 will be decided by the crew, but it is nevertheless true that we will miss this engine. So what do you believe will be the Challenger's fate? Restored for display or kept for future restoration?
In addition, there are also rumors of 5511 moving to Evanston, and 838's boiler eventually being fitted to 844. Is there anything to confirm on that? In addition, what will happen to the E9s and DDA40X diesels, as well as the CNW F7A 401, UP E9B 966B, and DRGW F9B 5763? The operational diesels have not been seen since 2017.
Also, if someone knows a writer for Trains Mag who writes about UP Steam, I suggest asking them to write about 3985's retirement if they are up to it.
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