WASHINGTON — The Federal Railroad Administration has told Union Pacific it doesn’t need waivers in 2019 to operate non-PTC-equipped steam locomotives Nos. 844 and 4014 on three excursions covering 11,111 miles, according to letters betwee...
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/02/28-fra-says-up-doesnt-need-wavier-to-run-steam-11000-miles-in-2019
Brian Schmidt, Editor, Classic Trains magazine
After reading the letter, if I understand it correctly, it sounds like they have until 2023 to figure out how to get the steam locomotives equipped for PTC. Am I understanding that right?
What I don't understand is why some big steam operators like Union Pacific, or the Steam Railroading Institute, or the Friends of 261, or the folks from Fort Wayne haven't contacted their congressmen or senators (they MUST know some) to have legislation passed exempting steam locomotives from PTC.
The engineer in a steam locomotive's not alone, he's at least got a fireman with him calling the signals, or a host railroad pilot advising him, and in all likelyhood cab guests. He's not going to fall asleep or lose concentration with an "audience" watching his every move.
PTC's just not needed in a steam locomotive cab.
Surely someone can get the ball rolling on this.
kgbw49 After reading the letter, if I understand it correctly, it sounds like they have until 2023 to figure out how to get the steam locomotives equipped for PTC. Am I understanding that right? YES
YES
The only date I see is December 31, 2020. That's when their current extension expires. As of last January, a PTC leader is required at the originating station for trains that will run in PTC territory. (Trains that suffer an in-route failure may continue without PTC.) Before that, although PTC was in use, it was still OK to use a non-equipped leader out of an originating terminal.
I can only guess that UP, because it upped the requirement for PTC leaders, thought a separate, specific waiver from the FRA was needed. And that FRA looks at the current extension as a waiver, so one specifically addressing the steam engines isn't needed.
Jeff
Flintlock76 What I don't understand is why some big steam operators like Union Pacific, or the Steam Railroading Institute, or the Friends of 261, or the folks from Fort Wayne haven't contacted their congressmen or senators (they MUST know some) to have legislation passed exempting steam locomotives from PTC. The engineer in a steam locomotive's not alone, he's at least got a fireman with him calling the signals, or a host railroad pilot advising him, and in all likelyhood cab guests. He's not going to fall asleep or lose concentration with an "audience. PTC's just not needed in a steam locomotive cab. Surely someone can get the ball rolling on this.
The engineer in a steam locomotive's not alone, he's at least got a fireman with him calling the signals, or a host railroad pilot advising him, and in all likelyhood cab guests. He's not going to fall asleep or lose concentration with an "audience.
Bottom line. The industry is aware (or should have been aware) of this issue and its potential imact on mainline steam operations since 2012.
I'll be real interested in how electronic PTC mechanisms will control the throttle on steam engines when making a penalty brake application - additionally will the PTC electronic displays have cab space priority over Steam and Air gagues on the locomotive backhead. Will also be interesting to see how well the electronics of the PTC equipment stand up to the heat and dirt that define steam engines.
I am not saying it can't be done, however I have recurring visions of Rube Goldberg at work.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BALT. As well what is the electrical load? Will there be a need for additional generating capacity and what kind of back up ? Electrical or mechanical connected to an axel generator?
Speculation. Maybe throttle control by a electromagnetic valve that would close if current is lost? Would need a bypass plumbing.
Question how did AT&SF and UP handle it with their ATS / ATC.?
BaltACDI'll be real interested in how electronic PTC mechanisms will control the throttle on steam engines when making a penalty brake application...
We keep having to go over this for some reason -- how do you suppose this got done on all those mandated ATS systems in the post-Esch-Act 1920s?
Now, it does have to be said that many of these were decidedly on the primitive side, depending on the fact that the brakes can easily source the equivalent of tens of thousands of horsepower vs. what the steam can produce in the cylinders even at full running cutoff. But even the provision of servo centering of the valve gear as part of penalty actuation isn't rocket science even with straight relay logic, and the addition of something as simple as a Franklin Precision or Throttle-Master air throttle makes the issue trivial even if you retain the grapevine linkage ... incidentally the T1 Trust 5550 is specifically designed to take native PTC not just for "penalty" applications but for continuous speed control, so the work has been done.
... additionally will the PTC electronic displays have cab space priority over Steam and Air gauges on the locomotive backhead.
Probably not -- but why would they?
A perhaps better question is whether, in a given installation, they would be permanently mounted at all. Note that the screen displays and controls are not relevant to the functioning of the system as a 'penalty' assurance of safety; you could easily make the necessary "controls" to look exactly like, say, historical inductor ATC forestaller levers and the like. On the other hand, it's simple to provide innocuous bracketry and properly environment-protected connectors to install any degree of command-and-control equipment for any particular service or run.
Will also be interesting to see how well the electronics of the PTC equipment stand up to the heat and dirt that define steam engines.
The heat and dirt are simple -- OTS industrial enclosures handle that stuff. Far more concerning is the pervasive 'humidity' and the caustic pH-11 stuff that goes along with it. Among other things, slightly thicker Parylene goes a long way toward making periodic maintenance opening of the necessary enclosures less troublesome for the equipment, as does thoroughgoing potting and connector implementation. Trust me when I say there is a very long and reasonably effective history of environment-proofing critical electronics; these applications to 'historic' steam power aren't limited either by shoestring operating economics or cut-a-corner daily revenue maximization strategies (insert PSR acronyms du jour and mandatory Mantle Ridge digs as appropriate)
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