I was interested that the leading dimensions of the 4-8-2s and 4-8-4s were so similar, particularly regarding cylinders and driving wheel size.
The 4-8-4 had a boiler barrel similar to that of the 4-8-2, but fairly obviously a longer grate (by about one foot) resulting in a longer locomotive.
One thing I didn't expect was that the earlier 4-8-2s all had Type A superheaters whiile all 4-8-4s had Type E superheaters. This included 4-8-2s built after the initial batch of 4-8-4s.
The final 4-8-2s (6060 onward) had Type E superheaters. I don't know about the preceding U-1e class, I haven't seen a diagram, but the similar U-1ds definitely retained the Type A superheater.
The final locomotives, both Mountain and Northern, U-1f and U-2h both reverted to outside frame leading trucks, and were very similar in overall appearance.
It is clear that CN saw a continuing role for both types in the steam era.
Peter
Well-balanced fine-looking machines. Canadian class!
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnr6402.htm
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnr6400.htm
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnr6237.htm
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnr6144.htm
http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnr6155.htm
Actually CN had 170 of these locomotives. If you include the Grand Trunk Western they had more than 200. And the 4-8-4s also ran through New Brunswick on the way between Montreal and Halifax. One of my earliest memories is of travelling from Montreal to Bathurst N.B. and back with my parents behind 4-8-4s. Fortunately, many of these have been preserved since they were very popular with the Canadian public. Preserved examples can be seen in Ottawa, Toronto, Guelph, and Fort Erie, as well as at the Exporail museum near Montreal.
kgbw49 Interesting link on the Royal Train Of 1939. http://www.themetrains.com/royal-train-roster.htm
Interesting link on the Royal Train Of 1939.
http://www.themetrains.com/royal-train-roster.htm
While that site is an excellent resource, there are still gaps regarding which locomotive hauled the train on the CN on certain sections. I'm sure 6028 must have hauled the eastbound into Toronto, and exactly where 6400 was used isn't clear.
The diagrams of the train itself are great, particularly the "head end power" generator using steam from the locomotive (via the steam heating connection). Even in May and June in Canada, steam heating would still be needed.
Thank You.
I recall that I was on that trip also. I did not use the connection from New Haven but came down from Boston on the first Boston - NY train in the morning, which is why I did not remember the RDC connection for that trip.
And I was a car attendent, opening doors and traps and closing them at the photo-stops and signalling to the next attendent forward.
I did not take any pictures myself on that trip, being asked to concentrate on the job and to look out for safety and camera-politeness at the photo-stops.
I think Grand Trunk or Grand Trunk Western passenger equipment was used the following year, but I may be mistaken on that. I do remember that the subsequent trip did have the passenger equipment start in New Haven, pulled by an FL9 to New London.
Dave,
The May 29, 1966 trip behind CN 4-8-4 6218 from New London, CT to Brattleboro, VT, was 52 years ago tomorrrow and I can't remember much about it. Fortunately I saved the trip announcement and on-board information pack as well as my Kodachrome slides. The trip was sponsored by Branford Electric Railway Association but it is possible you remember the near duplicate trip that group ran with 6218 on April 16, 1967 and maybe there was another that I don't recall. The announcement of the 1966 trip said, "A special RDC connection for passengers from New Haven and west will be run on Sunday morning leaving New Haven 8:08 A.M.....round trip must be purchased in advance. Return on train 199." It was a long trip since it was scheduled to leave New London at 9:45 A.M. and return at 10:55 P.M. The suggested connections with trains from New York meant leaving NYC before 6 A.M. and not returning until 3 A.M. My wife and I lived in NYC at the time but were visiting in Providence so our hours were a bit better since we could drive.
The trip announcement said Canadian National passenger equipment would be used and my photos indicate that was so. I counted twelve cars in one of my photos. There were two baggage cars with open, slatted doors; one at the head end for recordings and a second at mid-train for photographers and those who wanted to buy a snack -- there was no dining car but there was a 2 1/2 hour stop in Brattleboro for restaurant goers. Three run-by photo stops were included.
This trip was a treat for me since I had taken similar steam trips in 1954, 1955 and 1956 with 2-8-0s 464, 467, and 472 and mourned the end of steam on the Central Vermont in 1957. CN 6218 was the largest steam locomotive to run on the Southern Division -- in the steam era freight was moved by 2-8-0, frequently double-headed.
nnrand: Possibly I was one of the car-host volunteers on the New London - Brattleboro and return steam trip. Did the train actually originate in New Haven, taken to New London by a New Haven FL-9? Were the coaches Grand Trunk or Grand Trunk Western? Was it organized by the Branford Trolley Museum (Branford Electric Railrway Association, with the museum called Shore Linee Trolleyl Museum)?
It is probably worth looking at the locoomtives CN used on the 1939 Royal Tour train. CP decorated one Royal Hudson and it appears to have hauled the Royal Train all the way from Quebec City to Vancouver, presumably being serviced when the distinguished passengers were making their public appearances. Two other Hudsons were available in case of failure.
On the other hand used at least three locomotives,. It seems that 6047, a U-1e worked the train from Vancouver at least into Manitoba, probably to Winnipeg. U-1b 6028 worked the train into Toronto, possibly from Winnipeg.
I assume that U-4a 6400 worked the train from Toronto to Windsor. and probably eslewhere east of Toronto.
The fact that 6028 and 6047 are almost forgotten, and 6400 is preserved at least partly because of its Royal Train duties, although it probably worked the train for less distance than 6047.
But my point is, given the cost and complication of the modifications for Royal Train service, CN would not have converted the Mountains if track conditions would have allowed 6400 to run coast to coast as 2850 did for CP.
SPerCNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time.
.
selectorThey probably ran some 4-8-4's when it seemed right to do, but if a Mountain class could do it, why run a 4-8-4?.
I think there is more to this story, but it deserves comment from people with distinctive competence in Canadian design history.
Most of the vast number of U-class 4-8-4s represent an early stage of 4-8-4 'evolution', which although a very good one for the late '20s was not really comparable to developments in the late '30s and '40s -- compare the evolution of the rather larger C&NW H engines, which were rebuilt not once but twice to great advantage. Note that details such as the banjo frame and outside-bearing lead truck were not found in the last examples, and that 12" piston valves were retained right to the end.
Meanwhile, the 'Bullet-nosed Betty' U1f class of 1944 had the improvements from 1928 on, 14" valves in particular, and while a new and fully upgraded class of 4-8-4 (perhaps comparable to an early Niagara) could certainly have been built, or older engines upgraded as the ATSF 3751 class were, I think the Mountains did the job required while retaining greater route availability in the West.
I was skeptical abut the CN 4-8-4s not being used in the west so I went to CANADIAN NATIONAL STEAM POWER by Clegg and Corley which has system power assignments for a few years. Sure enough, in 1943 none of the 4-8-4s were assigned to the Western Region. The number of each type assigned to the Western Region follow (the last number is the total on the CN roster):
2-8-0 300 of 543; 4-6-0 97 of 239; 2-8-2 93 of 466; 0-6-0 89 of 282
4-6-2 79 of 294; 2-10-2 45 of 93; 4-8-2 24 of 63; 0-8-0 24 of 152
2-6-0 8 of 60
The number of 2-8-0s assigned to the Western Region may be surprising but much of the region was prairie and branches, not mountain grades'
The CN 4-8-4s would probably not win a railfan popularity poll but they were among my favorites. I saw and photographed them when I was a teen during a family vacation to Montreal and Quebec in the mid-1950s and liked them enough to return to ride the September 3 and 4, 1960 trips behind U-2-c 6153 which ran to mark the official last use of CN steam in regular service. On May 28, 1968 I rode behind preserved U-2-g 6218 over the Central Vermont, a CN subsidiary. The trip was New London, CT to Brattleboro, VT which, during the steam era, was restricted to 2-8-0s; the use of a 4-8-4 on the Southern Division suggests the type was relatively easy on track and bridges.
SPer While the CNR Northerns were used only in Ontario and Quebec because of their size and weight that restricted there...
While the CNR Northerns were used only in Ontario and Quebec because of their size and weight that restricted there...
What source are you looking at? I don't believe their size and weight had anything to do with where they did the most of their running. My guess would be that it had more to do with their capabilities where the need was greatest, and that would be where the tonnage and speed demanded their use.
Do you really believe the CN Ry switched to lighter rails at the Manitoba border?
SPer ...what steam locomotives did CNR used on their Western lines from Winnipeg to Vancouver
...what steam locomotives did CNR used on their Western lines from Winnipeg to Vancouver
They used 2-8-0's, 2-8-2's, 4-6-2's, 4-8-2's, and 2-10-2's. They probably ran some 4-8-4's when it seemed right to do, but if a Mountain class could do it, why run a 4-8-4?.
CN's 4-8-4's were relatively light because the engineering standards of CN's various predecessors required it.
I wasn't aware that the Northerns were restricted to Eastern Canada. But CN also rostered a wide variety of other locomotives, most notably Mikados and Pacifics.
While the CNR Northerns were used only in Ontario and Quebec because of their size and weight that restricted there,what steam locomotives did CNR used on their Western lines from Winnipeg to Vancouver
SPer CNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time. ...
CNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time. ...
Que?
SPer CNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time. The system had a total of 160 4-8-4s built between 1927 and 1944.
CNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time. The system had a total of 160 4-8-4s built between 1927 and 1944.
And a beautiful locomotive she was.. there's one, number 6167, on display here in Guelph.
CNR 4-8-4s are the most famous locomotives of all time. The system had a total of 160 4-8-4s built between 1927 and 1944. They are so large and heavy that CNR had to keep them only in Ontario,Quebec and Nova Scotia. and never systemwide locomotives. Six of them are still with us today
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.