The General Lee Steam Loco is safe for now

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The General Lee Steam Loco is safe for now
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Sunday, August 20, 2017 12:15 PM

Lets hope that reason overcomes the popular insanity that is the order of the day.

  http://locomotive.wikia.com/wiki/Western_%26_Atlantic_Railroad_%27General%27

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, August 21, 2017 4:46 PM

CandOforprogress2

Lets hope that reason overcomes the popular insanity that is the order of the day.

  http://locomotive.wikia.com/wiki/Western_%26_Atlantic_Railroad_%27General%27

 

Talking about the "General?"  I wouldn't worry about it, it's well=insulated in that museum.

I agree with you on the hysteria going on right now.  Captain Eddie Rickenbacker said it a long time ago, "Never underestimate the power of hysteria!"

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 21, 2017 6:11 PM

And it is not the 'General Lee'!  It is the General, without association with any particular named army.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, August 21, 2017 6:15 PM

The RF&P here in Virginia had a 4-8-4 named the "General Robert E. Lee,"  howver it was sent for scrap many moons ago.

Too bad, those "Generals," "Governors," and "Statesmen" locomotives were fine machines, it's a shame none were saved.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, August 21, 2017 7:18 PM

Yes, and it's not even so specific so as to have a "The", it's just "General" like the loco chasing it was just "Texas".

These are the most impressive models of the "Great Locomotive Chase" locomotives you're likely to see.  They were hand carved from ivory by Mooney Warther between 1905 and 1971.  In those days ivory was legal.  These days, it's double jeopardy if society turns against something in such a radical way.  If you've never seen the Warther carvings, you should come to Ohio!  Welcome

http://thewarthermuseum.com/

But anyways.  Destroying historical monuments serves no purpose.  Wish more railroads had looked at their equipment in that vein and saved some of the icons for posterity.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 3:58 PM

People got in the habit of saying, "The General" after the Buster Keaton classic film, one of my all-time favourites! In any event, the locomotive is the real article! 

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 4:23 PM

54light15
People got in the habit of saying, "The General" after the Buster Keaton classic film, one of my all-time favourites! In any event, the locomotive is the real article! 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 4:50 PM

I'm not sure, but I think the Warther Collection was featured on "Tracks Ahead" about 20 or so years ago.  If that's the case the carved locomotives featured were absolutely jaw dropping.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:01 PM

Probably, but we never had Tracks Ahead in my area.  The only parts of the show I know are the segments included in a documentary collection called "World's Greatest Railroads" I bought at Target.

This one was Mooney's personal favorite:

Note that he carved each individual part (including thousands of rivets), everything is dry fit, no adhesives, self lubricating and MOVES.  This loco turns majesticaly on a turntable as it's drivers slowly rotate.

Anyways, I don't want to hijack.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 7:35 PM

Don't worry about hijacking the thread Becky, it's always a thrill to look at astonishing pieces of craftsmanship,  and they ARE astonishing!

Wayne

PS: We had "Tracks Ahead" on and off for quite a while here, it seemed like the local PBS station couldn't figure out what to do with it.

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Posted by Gramp on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 10:35 PM

Anyone know where "The General" was filmed?

Did they actually wreck an operable lines' trestle to film it?

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Posted by CMStPnP on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 11:16 PM

Penny Trains
Destroying historical monuments serves no purpose.

There is far more behind it then you realize.    While I agree that valid historical monuments should be preserved what your not understanding is a lot of these  so called "historical monuments" were erected by the KKK or ancillary groups sympathetic to the KKK.    And even to this day new ones are being erected by KKK infiltrated front groups.    Now hey, if the KKK was being racially sensitive or historically accurate with the monuments then maybe you might persuade yourself to be neutral but thats not the case.    Some of the past monuments were used as KKK gathering places or cross burnings.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Confederate-monument-near-MLK-Jr-Drive-in-East-9139062.php

Now when folks are made aware of the above they say.   "Hey what does it matter, the memorial is on private land and a man is free to do what they want with their own private land".

While that is true if you look at other Confederate Monuments around the country erected in the early 1900's they too were erected on private land (such as Stone Mountain in Georgia, carved on land owned by a Klan sympathizer).    So what is wrong with that is the KLAN is not stupid, they will wait for a period of racial tension and then make a case that gee we can no longer afford upkeep to this monument......wouldn't you the State of Georgia like to buy it and take it over (1958 during the Jim Crow debates).    And walla!    Now the private monument isn't so private anymore, the KLAN gets taxpayer money (directly or indirectly), and the monument is protected by government and state law.   Some of the monuments are just downright offensive such as the "Happy Slave" monument.

I wish I could say the plan only extended to Stone Mountain but you will find a whole slew of Confederate Monuments and Statues suddenly with either an ownership change or a purchase.........well into the 19th Century about the time that Civil Rights legislation was starting to be debated or discussed.

The Confederate statues in Dallas were erected during the WPA era under President Roosevelt.     So lets again look back in history and say that General Lee and/or General Grant were in favor of this kind of memorialization but if you check both were adamantly opposed to it.    In fact what many people call the Confederate Flag.........which is actually the Confederate Battle Flag.    General Lees wishes that as a former battle standard it was never to fly again or be seen in public again.    Yet various boneheads today disrespect those wishes openly they say it is to preserve their heritage but it is really a larger reflection of ignorance on their part.      You won't see those same people flying a Confederacy Flag NOPE, it has to be specifically the Confederate Battle Flag....you can draw your own conclusion on the WHY behind it.

Now a brief mention of the Civil War, it was not a "glorious war" nor was it a crusade by the North.    In fact if you read folks letters at the time very, very few held the war in high esteem.    It was in fact one of the most unpopular wars this country ever fought, it was exponentially more unpopular than Vietnam.   In fact after the Union Congress passed the Draft to the Army law in 1862 or 1863.   Draft riots raged across the Union states with the largest being in New York in 1863.    You see high casualty rates in a unpopular war in which people calculate a unwelcome outcome even if they win........will push people to riot      Wisconsin had a  draft riot in Port Washington as well that was put down by troops.

So a sane person could make the argument the Civil War really is nothing to celebrate about.   While I am OK with some monuments, should there be Confederacy monuments in Arizona and potentially other states that had nothing to do with the Civil War?      Should we still be erecting monuments to the Civil War in this day and age?     Will it really hurt this country to cut down on the overly prolific number of General Lee Statues?    I doubt it.     Will it hurt to reign in some of the more obnoxious Civil War era memorialization groups such as Sons of Confederate Veterans (which was instrumental in the meelee in Charleston, BTW).    No I think our government can tell them....."It's long past time you cease and desist"............"you were, after all, on the losing side of the damn war in the first place and you need to remember that part more than anything else".

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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 11:23 PM

The General was filmed on a now long gone logging Railway in central Oregon. They simply used the trains and 4-4-0 locomotives the Railway already had. They simply built prop passenger and box cars on the flatcars used to haul sawn lumber and logs. The trestle were all part of the existing right of way. The finale with the loco falling thru the burning trestle was filmed on a real bridge that they cut away almost all of the structure till it would barely support the train, the fire  was real and a mannequin was placed in the engineer seat for the one and only filming take, and hulk of the engine remained in the creek for years until scrapped during WW2.

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 12:43 PM

Excerpt from Pacific Coast Miner, Sept. 5, 1903

The work on the Oregon Southeastern Railroad Company, connecting Cottage Grove with the Bohemia district, is being pushed rapidly. Rails and ties are on the ground, and it is anticipated that connections with the mining camp will be made before the rains begin. One hundred and fifty men are working on the electric plant on Frank Brice Creek, which will operate concentrators and drills and the tram line connecting the Helena, Champion and Musick mines. The three 10-stamp mills of these properties have been combined into one and the tramways connecting them where there are no tunnels have been shedded so as to prevent interference by heavy snowfalls. A tunnel is being driven through Grouse Mountain to reach the Broadway vein, recently purchased by the Oregon Securities Company. The power line will be operated by the 15th inst., it is thought. Mr. J.H. Pierson is general manager of the railroad, and is connected also with the mining operations of the allied company.

 

Excerpt from Cottage Grove Historic Context Statement (1992)

The Oregon South Eastern built a railroad towards Row River in 1902. Governor Geer arrived from Salem to dedicate the railroad by turning the first spade of earth. The OS&E became known as the "Old Slow and Easy." lt traveled to the end of the line at the junction of Row River and Sharps Creek and was used to transport supplies to, and gold from, the mines. From the beginning the Old Slow and Easy was used as an excursion train. When Bohemia mines were at peak production it is estimated that there were 1500 to 1800 people residing in and around the mining community. The railroad that was built to service the mills and mines east of Cottage Grove also delivered mail to the rural post offices, and picked up milk for the creamery along the way. As the mines became depleted timber production advanced and saved this railroad line. In 1917 J.H. Chambers secured control of the line and used it to service his lumber operations. This railroad supplied his mill south of Cottage Grove and his sawmill out towards Row River. Chambers owned this line until 1924 when he sold his lumber and railroad interests to the Anderson-Middleton Company of Aberdeen, Washington, who used the line well into the 1950s. This railroad was featured in the Buster Keaton movie "The General" in 1926.

 “O&SE Oregon & Southeastern Railroad 2-6-0 Steam Locomotive #3”

“Oregon & Southeastern (OSE) Engines 3 & 4 with Log Train at Cottage Grove”

 

Excerpt from Cottage Grove Historical Society

https://cottagegrovehistoricalsociety.com/buster_keaton.html

After initially scouting the actual Civil War locations in and around Georgia, Buster discovered after 60 years, that the Southern sites had changed too much to present an authentic Civil War look. While thinking of suitable locations, he remembered how much Oregon reminded him of the South when he traveled across the country during his Vaudeville days. As he scouted the state, he heard of a short line railroad in Cottage Grove. Buster explored the area thoroughly and liked what he saw.

 

Excerpt from The Oregon Encyclopedia

https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/the_general_film/#.WZ2jW2dK2M8

Keaton attempted to shoot the film where the incident actually happened in northern Georgia and Tennessee, using the actual steam locomotive, the General, then on display at the railroad station in Chattanooga. But when the locomotive's owners realized the film would be a comedy and some of the locals protested, the deal fell apart. Keaton's location manager then discovered a similar locomotive in the logging camps to the east of Cottage Grove, a town of about two thousand inhabitants, along with suitable tracks to film the action and scenery resembling the southern Appalachians.

 

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Posted by NKP guy on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 1:27 PM

And it is not the 'General Lee'!  It is the General, without association with any particular named army.

 
 

 Why am I visualizing someone wearing a pair of Daisy Dukes in the cab with the engineer of this mythical locomotive?

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 4:25 PM

Penny Trains

Yes, and it's not even so specific so as to have a "The", it's just "General" like the loco chasing it was just "Texas".

These are the most impressive models of the "Great Locomotive Chase" locomotives you're likely to see.  They were hand carved from ivory by Mooney Warther between 1905 and 1971.  In those days ivory was legal.  These days, it's double jeopardy if society turns against something in such a radical way.  If you've never seen the Warther carvings, you should come to Ohio!  Welcome

http://thewarthermuseum.com/

But anyways.  Destroying historical monuments serves no purpose.  Wish more railroads had looked at their equipment in that vein and saved some of the icons for posterity.

 

EmbarrassedWelcome upvote!

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 4:43 PM

Why now? Whats with this all of of a sudden?

 

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:14 PM

Good post, CMStPnP. It's about moving time for those statues of Confederate generals, etc.. They should be relocated to battlefields or military cemetaries.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:53 PM

For the Confederate Monuments - Establish a 'Losers Memorial Park' - these are the leaders of a failed ideology that commited treason, waged and lost a war against the United States of America trying to implement that ideology forever. The losers fought valiantly and lost. May it be forever remembered THEY LOST and were a large blemish on the history of the USA. The icons they used in battle also lost. 

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Posted by tdmidget on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:40 PM

CMStPnP and Balt ACD,

You know very little. I know about the Klan. I grew up with it. They did not hold their crossburnings and such at memorial monuments. The local authorities would not have tolerated it. They were scarcely allowed in town at all , at least in their robes, due to laws against wearing masks for illegal purposes. These things were done several miles out of town, usually at a crossroad that was little traveled.

You paint with a broad brush. The United Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy are merely decendants remembering their ancestors who died in a useless war. Most of these statues and such were erected with private funds by them and are technically still private property. I have seen none that commerorate slavery. I'm not into this geneology craze but it is almost inevitable that some of my ancestors fought in that war. I can assure you that my ancestors never had the means to own slaves.

 The Civil war was a savage war. Many, many bodies were never recovered. Many of those that were were never identified. It is fitting that their demise be acknowledged and remembered.

By law every man that fought in the Civil War is a U S veteran. So you are saying that U S veterans should not be remembered by even a statue when there may be no other grave, headstone, or marker?

Baltacd, we are the only country where those who fought and lost might be remembered. There are no monuments to Czarist troop in Russia. There are no statues remembering the dead of Chian Kai Cheks army in China. This is something that makes us unique. We can remember the deaths of all, regardless of what side they were on.

Have you ever been to the Vicksburg battlfield? There  is a monument from every state commemorating that states dead in that battle. What next, you will want to take down all the confederate states monuments and leave the northern states?

The Gettysburg address did not only  remember Northern Troops. In fact until world war 2 their were reunions there every year where men from both sides met and told their stories and probably remembered and tried to forget.

I'm pretty sure that in that war that there must have been a Forrest Gump moment, when some poor sob with his guts hanging out said the equivalent of "Forrest, why is this happening?" We cannot erase that history we need to be reminded every day that 629,000 men died in that war. It doesn't hurt to remember that a generation in the South was disenfranchised and their states occupied. Oh, that's what you call "reconstruction".

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 6:46 PM

CMStPnP
There is far more behind it then you realize

Incorrect.  The only point I have is that wonton hate against people who are long dead serves no purpose.  Hate, only weakens the "hater" and strengthens the "hated".  A marble, bronze or tin-plated representation of something or someone is capable of neither of those things, as it is merely only an object.  When you destroy it, you damage yourself more than the thing you're railing against.  Monuments need to be kept in their proper place.  And more importantly, their proper context.  They can be moved, modified and corrected.

I could give many examples of my position, but this is a railroading forum and we're supposed to leave politics at the door.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, August 23, 2017 7:09 PM

Ever read about the Fiftieth Anniversary Reunion at Gettysburg PA, in 1913?

It was a massive gathering of surviving Civil War veterans, both North and South, all were welcome.  All met under their respective flags, and no-one minded a bit.

When the survivors of Pickett's Charge re-enacted the charge on the same ground where it took place, veterans of both sides shook hands over the stone wall on Cemetery Ridge, some embraced, and there were quite a few tears shed.

Now, if these men in their seventies and eighties, who were trying to slaughter each other when they were in their twenties could put all that hate behind them, what excuse does anyone living today, who never marched across a field where a man's life expectancy could be measured in seconds, who never slept in the mud, never had to survive on hardtack or greasy pork, never went through the horror of an unsanitized field hospital, and never lost some of the best friends a man could have, I say what excuse does anyone living to day have for moaning and whining about a four-year horror that ended over a century and a half ago?

Sorry for the rant of an old Marine.  Maybe other veterans know what I'm trying to say.

And certainly, politics don't belong here, except as they pertain to railroads.

I'll say no more.  Signing off on this particular subject.

Statues, not the "General."

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:06 AM

From Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution of the United States:  "Treason against the United States, shall consist only of levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

It appears that the rebellion of the eleven states against the United States meets the Constitutional definition of Treason.

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, August 24, 2017 8:09 AM

Firelock76

Ever read about the Fiftieth Anniversary Reunion at Gettysburg PA, in 1913?

It was a massive gathering of surviving Civil War veterans, both North and South, all were welcome.  All met under their respective flags, and no-one minded a bit.

When the survivors of Pickett's Charge re-enacted the charge on the same ground where it took place, veterans of both sides shook hands over the stone wall on Cemetery Ridge, some embraced, and there were quite a few tears shed.

Now, if these men in their seventies and eighties, who were trying to slaughter each other when they were in their twenties could put all that hate behind them, what excuse does anyone living today, who never marched across a field where a man's life expectancy could be measured in seconds, who never slept in the mud, never had to survive on hardtack or greasy pork, never went through the horror of an unsanitized field hospital, and never lost some of the best friends a man could have, I say what excuse does anyone living to day have for moaning and whining about a four-year horror that ended over a century and a half ago?

Sorry for the rant of an old Marine.  Maybe other veterans know what I'm trying to say.

And certainly, politics don't belong here, except as they pertain to railroads.

I'll say no more.  Signing off on this particular subject.

Statues, not the "General."

 

Those reunions were touching but that is not the issue.  If you were Jewish (I have no idea of your background) how would you feel if your children had to attend an Adolph Hitler High School?  Or you had to walk by a statue of Heinrich Himmler on your way to your office?  Or that most of your neighbors flew the Hakenkreuz flag or awore the arm bands on April 20?  Or if you were a white southerner in Madison, GA, how would you like to face a memorial to Gen. Sherman and his bummers? That is analogous to what many African-Americans have had to face.

Most of these statues were erected when Jim Crow laws were passed in the late 19th century, more after the reforming of the KKK in 1915 and still more in the 1960s.  They are a symbol of a way of life that was based on a slave economy.  It's time to move on.  Generals on both sides belong on battlefields or cemetaries.

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Posted by NKP guy on Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:03 AM

   May I suggest another reason those aged veterans clasped hands 75 years later?

   My dad felt no particular animus towards ordinary Japanese soldiers and sailors, which surprised me as he survived the Pearl Harbor attack and was a 8-year Navy vet.  He was clear that "those guys" were just serving their country and doing as they were told, just as he did.

   He did, however, feel a visceral dislike of high officers and officials because they were calling the shots.

   In the same way, I think it's OK to keep monuments in cemeteries to Confederate dead, as long as the soldiers depicted are just common soldiers.  However, it has bothered me all my life that there are statues to Confederate generals and officials; as others here have pointed out, these men were traitors, pure and simple.

   Why in Hell there should be statues in the Capitol to Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, etc. is something I have never understood nor ever will.

   In the words of one of my favorite Civil War songs:

             "Down with the traitor, up with the Star!"        (Rally 'round the flag)

 

 

      One last thing:   When I was teaching the skill of writing good history essays I used to implore my students to think about a question from perspectives other than those of white men.  "Think how the subject of the question affected blacks and women, too," I would say.  "Think of other people, not just yourselves."  

   Isn't that what's needed here?    

 

 

 

 

               

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:26 AM

While historians and others can argue about R.E. Lee's place today, there can be no justification for statues and other memorials to Nathan Bedford Forrest, responsible for the massacre of Union troops, black and white, at Ft. Pillow.  U.S. Grant quotes from Forrest's original dispatch: 'The river was dyed,' he says, 'with the blood of the slaughtered for two hundred yards. The approximate loss was upward of five hundred killed, but few of the officers escaping. My loss was about twenty killed. It is hoped that these facts will demonstrate to the Northern people that negro soldiers cannot cope with Southerners.'

The fact that he was a wealthy slave trader and early member of the KKK only makes the case against him worse.  He should have been executed for war crimes.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:40 AM

I took basic at Fort Gordon in ’66, named for John Brown Gordon and his twin brother John.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 24, 2017 10:51 AM

Schlimm, your post asking one to imagine being Jewish but having to walk daily past a Hitler statue is not very different than what most Israeli's do endure.  

I don't have to listen to the radio or watch TV or read newspapers that extole Hitler, but I am aware that a few of my neighbors do exactly that and approve of these broadcasts and newspapers.  Yet, in my daily dealings I never assume that they do and neither do most Israelis.   Treat everyone with kindness and respect is a commandment.

Of course I agree with your comment.   So, incindentally, do most writers in the National Review.   And no "fine people" would march with group displaying a Nazi flag, no matter how much they adored a statue.  Another point made in The National Review.  Seconded in the Jerusalem Post.

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, August 24, 2017 11:26 AM

Well, anyway to get back to "the General" does anyone know what happened to the locomotive that was used as the General after Buster was done filming? Also, what about the locomotives used in the Disney film about the Andrews raid? I remember that one looked like Stephenson's Rocket, called the Yonah, I think. 

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