You'll love it Backshop! I got mine about ten or so years ago and never tire of rereading it.
"Sway Of The Grand Saloon" is on my must-read list as well.
Another one you'll like is "The Sway of the Grand Saloon, A Social History of the North Atlantic" by John Malcolm Brinnin. Also, look for the books by Bill Miller; he has books that cover Cunard, The French Line and so forth.
Just ordered The Only Way To Cross from B&N. Thanks for the recommendation.
I've read old news reports about the "top-heavy" Normandie capsizing. Read Maxtone-Graham's book and you learn, "No it wasn't," but fingers must be pointed, right?
You've got the "Normandie" story right Becky. Actually, if someone had thought to go below decks and open the lower gangways all that water they were pumping into the ship would have had a way to escape, and all that top-weight from the water wouldn't have been a problem.
The really sad thing was the designer of the ship Vladimir Yourkevitch was in New York at the time. Since he knew the "Normandie" like the back of his hand he would have been of tremendous help in fighting the fire but the US Navy officer in charge of the operation wouldn't let him near the ship. "The Navy can handle this!" he said. Sure they could.
Not the US Navy's finest hour.
The story of the whole sad incident is told in John Maxtone-Graham's "The Only Way To Cross," a great book to read if you love the old ocean liners. I can't recommend it enough!
A lot of what I've read postulates that the Normandie probably would have been much better off if they'd just let it burn. Since they flooded the ship unevenly with the fireboats pumping WAY more water into her than the dockside firefighters did the ship heeled over. If they had let it burn, they only would have had to clean up the fire damage but as it was they also had to deal with a lot of flooding damage which affected more areas of the ship than just the Main Dining Saloon where the fire originated. (Stack of old cork life jackets ignited by a cutting torch.)
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Well, according to Jack Larson, who played Jimmy Olsen in the series and who was a good friend of George it was a suicide. It came as a shock to Jack but not a surprise. He said George was very depressed about his career stalling after the "Superman" series being cancelled, in addition to which George was getting older and no matter how hard he worked out and dieted age was slowly but surely taking it's toll and he was losing his once fine physique.
It's really a shame, because had he held on for a few more years I'm sure George Reeves would have had the satisfaction of knowing that thanks to the "Superman" role he was an American icon, loved by more than one generation of children.
Anyway, I was curious if everyone heard what I heard when I was a kid:
"What happened to George Reeves?"
"Aw, it's too bad. He went nuts, thought he really was Superman and jumped out a window trying to fly!"
Anyway, getting back to those gorgeous ships and their demise...
In my humble opinion with proper fire supression equipment installed, proper crew training, and proper seamanship there's no reason a ship with a wooden superstructure would be any less safe than an all-steel ship. The "Morro Castle," the "Normandie," and the "Queen Elizabeth" (as Seawise University) were all-steel ships and that didn't save them from catstrophic fires.
But, the law is what it is. End of story.
What I've heard about George Reeves is that his wife was a control freak and she was losing control of him as he was getting a lot of film offers at the time. He refused to stay under her thumb. Suicide? I highly doubt it. But, having said that I did get this information from the book, "Hollywood Babylon 2" by Kenneth Anger. I have seen George in several films including one with James Cagney, called "Strawberry Blonde."
Wasn't there a movie about George's death with Ben Affleck?
CandOforprogress2Here is my old workplace great food and the lower deck we caught many a walleye while in port-
CandOforProgress2:
That's a fine-looking Columbia Steamship boat you sailed on. In response, may I attach two photos of my 1967 summer workplace: Str. Reiss Brothers.
http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/historic/perspectives/Spruceglen1/ReissBrothers-THar-MM.jpg
http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/historic/perspectives/Spruceglen1/REISS%20BROTHERS%202.jpg
As a lowly deckhand, I can attest that the food was unexpectedly delicious, but at night it could get boring in those pre-computer, lousy-TV reception days.
My job on that boat was literally the hardest physical work I have ever done in my life.
Fifty years ago who would have foreseen the Great Lakes nearly bereft of all its ore boats?
Sic transit gloria navalis.
Firelock76By the way, any of you remember the childhood rumors of how George Reeves, the REAL Superman, met his demise? I know what I heard, but I won't say. I want to know what YOU heard!
Officially suicide, but some think accidental shooting by his fiance, a Miss Lemmon, or murder by an unnamed hitman under orders from mobster Eddie Mannix as Reeves was having an affair with Mannix's wife.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
54light15Joe Shuster was born in Toronto.
True. But Superman was born in Cleveland!
CSSHEGEWISCH 54light15 RME- I have some really bad news for you. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto. There's even a street named after him near where I live. His family moved to Ohio when he was nine. I loved the old TV show and my favourite part was the Southern Pacific GS-4 in the opening credits. "More powerful than a locomotive!" Some of the later shows show a trio of E7's in Daylight colors.
54light15 RME- I have some really bad news for you. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto. There's even a street named after him near where I live. His family moved to Ohio when he was nine. I loved the old TV show and my favourite part was the Southern Pacific GS-4 in the opening credits. "More powerful than a locomotive!"
RME- I have some really bad news for you. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto. There's even a street named after him near where I live. His family moved to Ohio when he was nine. I loved the old TV show and my favourite part was the Southern Pacific GS-4 in the opening credits. "More powerful than a locomotive!"
Which is why Lady Firestorm and I call cab units "Superman Diesels."
And when we were in high school around 1970 kids called the big blocky cars from the early Fifties "Superman Cars." Girls called the women's fashions of that time "Lois Lane Outfits." Hey, everybody grew up watching that show, and you were never too old for it!
By the way, any of you remember the childhood rumors of how George Reeves, the REAL Superman, met his demise? I know what I heard, but I won't say. I want to know what YOU heard!
Here is my old workplace great food and the lower deck we caught many a walleye while in port-
54light15Daily Planet? In the comics or the old TV show with George Reeves? I recall in the show the D.P. was the Los Angeles city hall. Or am I thinking of something else?
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2090
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
54light15Daily Planet? In the comics or the old TV show with George Reeves?
In the original newspaper comic, with its strong Cleveland connection!
Daily Planet? In the comics or the old TV show with George Reeves? I recall in the show the D.P. was the Los Angeles city hall. Or am I thinking of something else?
Most of these I took in 1993(?) at the end of the MS walk.
The large structure across the river was the power house for the Cleveland streetcar systems.
Not the best scan job but I've always liked this one with the juxtaposition of the enourmous towering bridge and that tiny racing shell right below it.
The crowd in front of the powerhouse is the walkers gathering at the Nautica stage for our "reward" for finishing the MS walk: a concert by Beatles tribute band 1964. Man were they good!
The only spot on the river large enough to turn a lake freighter.
I took this one in 2006 from an American Airlines regional jet on final for Hopkins. The windows were tinted adding to the difficulties of shooting handheld on a moving plane so this was the best I could do to clean up a lagely "blue" photo.
Obviously that large orange thing front and center is Browns stadium and just to the left of it are the Great Lakes Science Center and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. If you look between them in the lagoon, you can see the permanently moored William G. Mather. To the left of the Rock Hall is the East 9th Street pier where Captain Frank's used to be. And if you look reeeaaaal hard at the left edge of the left edge of the lagoon east (left) of the pier you can just make out the gray U.S.S. Cod, our WWII submarine.
Oh, and just for fun, almost dead center in this photo is the old Ohio Bell Building with it's green antenna array on the roof. That is the building that modeled for the Daily Planet!
I remember this boat docked in Buffalo the Aquarama. It looked big and scary like something that belonged in the past on the bottom of Lake Erie forvever haunted
Then there is this-
https://www.curbed.com/2016/3/15/11240180/s-s-columbia-steamboat-restoration-historic-preservation still in serivice untill 1970s
Five complete decks, the lower three being of steel. The interiors have wood paneling, but so did the Queen Mary, Elizabeth, etc.
SS South American article with diagrams, specs.
Balt, you are thinking of Jim's Steak House on Collision Bend in the Flats. It had a huge red neon sign on the roof identifying itself and looked to be an oasis in a dusty, busy, industrial part of town. When one got inside it was a bit modern/spartan in appearance. I'm not sure if it even had tablecloths, but I suspect its main business was lunch, because in the 1960's people didn't have much reason to venture downtown anymore, as one by one the nightlife and finally even the corporate office culture diminished.
Jim's served delicious versions of Cleveland's three favorite dinners in those days: steak, lobster, and chops.
Jim's was really for adults. Families and kids, as well as adults, of course, loved Captain Frank's Seafood House on the East 9th Street pier. Great view of the lakefront, lots of good deep-fried seafood, lots of neon signage, and maybe best of all, the South American tied up right next to the restaurant (so did the North American).
People today who didn't get to see the ore boats on Lake Erie, or watch them edging their way up or down the Cuyahoga River with a few attendant tug boats, really missed something. Cleveland even used to have a fleet of fishing boats that tied up at State Fish in the Flats to off-load the day's catch. Northern Pike, anyone? Yellow Perch?
Balt, did you ever eat at Joe Kindler's Cafe, right under the Shoreway bridge on the east side of the Flats? Open 24 hours a day, its customers consisted almost entirely of steel workers, railroad crews, seamen, truck drivers and laborers. To walk in the door at Kindler's was to enter the world of blue collar, hardworking men.
http://www.ohio66.com/wedding/steakhouse/default.asp
http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/postcards/id/4232/rec/1
http://clevhist.blogspot.com/2009/06/from-back-of-house-memories-of-steak.html
http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/ref/collection/postcards/id/692
Penny Trains BaltACD As I recall there was a class restaurent (whose name I can't remember) that had a great view of Collision Bend and the river operations that traversed the area. Could it be Jim's Steakhouse which was sort of "half under" the Detroit Superior bridge?
BaltACD As I recall there was a class restaurent (whose name I can't remember) that had a great view of Collision Bend and the river operations that traversed the area.
Could it be Jim's Steakhouse which was sort of "half under" the Detroit Superior bridge?
From the Google Earth view (and a 50+ year memory), the restaurant would have been in the location now occupied by Trident Marine. The old B&O Freight Agency building was located on Canal Road across the river.
Google Earth - 41°29'31.91" N 81°41'15.53" W
BaltACDAs I recall there was a class restaurent (whose name I can't remember) that had a great view of Collision Bend and the river operations that traversed the area.
That's right any iron or steel from the super structure fell into the iron hull. The hull, boilers, machinery and misc iron was towed back and recycled.
ROBERT WILLISON Many of the old steam ferries and overnight ships, like the city of Detroit, boffola and Cleveland ended their careers being towed out to a shallow spot, and being burnt.
Many of the old steam ferries and overnight ships, like the city of Detroit, boffola and Cleveland ended their careers being towed out to a shallow spot, and being burnt.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON they were no doubt beautiful ships. But they were also Death traps. Many instances where they caught fire and sank in the great lakes, Hudson river and along the Mississippi. Besides being of wood construction. Any fires that broke out while being underway were spread quickly by lake winds and the ship making way. The SS North American and South American were built of steel, but ultimately could not pass newer fire safety codes. Congress passed a law in 1966 forcing the ships to be docked. The South American made a final cruise in 1967. http://cruiselinehistory.com/ss-south-american-the-final-voyage/
ROBERT WILLISON they were no doubt beautiful ships. But they were also Death traps. Many instances where they caught fire and sank in the great lakes, Hudson river and along the Mississippi. Besides being of wood construction. Any fires that broke out while being underway were spread quickly by lake winds and the ship making way.
The SS North American and South American were built of steel, but ultimately could not pass newer fire safety codes. Congress passed a law in 1966 forcing the ships to be docked. The South American made a final cruise in 1967.
http://cruiselinehistory.com/ss-south-american-the-final-voyage/
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.