update: looks like VA will buy it "back" https://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/plus/virginia-has-billion-deal-to-expand-rail-service-between-richmond/article_460c07a4-84d1-5b0c-9c0f-6dd384d7aa7b.html
Why VRE built most of their stations for operation on #2 track only is beyond me. I feature it would have been cheaper for the State of Virginia to make all the stations accessable to both tracks, than adding additional tracks to the line.
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Of course, we are talking about CSX and the Commonwealth of Virginia, and that might explain a lot.
Tom
ACYBalt, my understanding has always been that the double track RF&P was engineered with the expectation that a third track might eventually be added, and that third track was expected to go on the East side, which explains the numbering of the two mainline tracks as numbers 2 and 3 in most locations (the phantom future track being number 1). 1. Is this true? 2. If true, why in the Dickens did they build all of those brand new commuter stations on the east side where the possible third track should go? Didn't they refer to the original engineering plan? Just wondering. Tom
1. Is this true?
2. If true, why in the Dickens did they build all of those brand new commuter stations on the east side where the possible third track should go? Didn't they refer to the original engineering plan?
Just wondering.
I don't know if #1 is true or not.
As you know on the RF&P, where #2 & #3 are the primary Main Tracks - #2 is East of #3, #1 track, where it exists is East of #2 track. #4 track, where it exists is West of #3 track. In Current of Traffic days, #2 was the Northbound Main and #3 was the Southbound - industrial spurs are set up based on the CoT directions of the tracks.
Since you retired, #1 track was extended from Fredericksburg CP to Crossroads CP. A #4 track has been extended from Amtrak Station to a new control point North of Greendale that is known as Lakeside. The extension of #1 track from North Possum Point to Powells Creek is being worked on with completion expected to be this Spring.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt, my understanding has always been that the double track RF&P was engineered with the expectation that a third track might eventually be added, and that third track was expected to go on the East side, which explains the numbering of the two mainline tracks as numbers 2 and 3 in most locations (the phantom future track being number 1).
It may be true that planning for a single track replacement bridge was in process in the early 80's, but no actual construction was undertaken for several years. When I started working on the Auto Train in September of 1987, RF&P freight trains passing our Lorton terminal were all RF&P and we were using the old Quantico bridge. Commuter service was being pushed by a small but vocal minority, even before I started working for Amtrak, but had not been developed into a real plan. Anybody with any foresight at all knew that it was just a matter of time before it would happen. The first announcements about a replacement bridge came some time later, when commuter rail service was already being discused. I remember participating in onboard conversations about whether the new bridge would be adequate for the anticipated additional traffic. This was BEFORE the new bridge was completed. While I don't remember for sure, I don't think the bridge was completed in the 1986-7 time frame. Maybe 1988, but I would have said more like some time after about 1990. Then the plan to initiate commuter service came to fruition, and CSX told the Commonwealth that it would require the Commonwealth to pay for additional bridge capacity because the brand new single track bridge would be a bottleneck. That's the order of events, as I recall them.
ACYI've heard both sides of the ownership story, but I have always ubderstood that VA had considerable retirement funds invested in RF&P, which was a very profitable operation and essential to CSX operation. At the time of the change in ownership, at least two things were going on: First, the approx. 100 year old double track Quantico Creek bridge was showing its age and was in need of replacement. Second, the idea of inaugurating VA commuter rail service was in its infancy. When CSX took over, they replaced the Quantico bridge with a brand new one. I don't remember whether the new bridge was double track or single, but it was clear at the time that the replacement should have three tracks because the commuter service would require increased track capacity. When the commuter service began, the Commonwealth paid CSX (new owners) to build an additional bridge to bring the track capacity up to three tracks. I have always maintained that the RF&P was such a valuable property to CSX that they would have paid for the new bridge if the Commonwealth had been better negotiators. Under the previous ownership, the Commonwealth had some leverage. Now, they have no leverage, but must depend on CSX to provide service. For this, the Commonwealth acquired the Potomac Yard site. I have no idea of its value, but the cleanup certainly wasn't cheap. There are those who say VA got a good deal, but I'm not so sure. Maybe others can correct/clarify details. Tom Edit: PS I live in MD now, so I have no dog in this hunt.
First, the approx. 100 year old double track Quantico Creek bridge was showing its age and was in need of replacement.
Second, the idea of inaugurating VA commuter rail service was in its infancy.
When CSX took over, they replaced the Quantico bridge with a brand new one. I don't remember whether the new bridge was double track or single, but it was clear at the time that the replacement should have three tracks because the commuter service would require increased track capacity. When the commuter service began, the Commonwealth paid CSX (new owners) to build an additional bridge to bring the track capacity up to three tracks. I have always maintained that the RF&P was such a valuable property to CSX that they would have paid for the new bridge if the Commonwealth had been better negotiators. Under the previous ownership, the Commonwealth had some leverage. Now, they have no leverage, but must depend on CSX to provide service. For this, the Commonwealth acquired the Potomac Yard site. I have no idea of its value, but the cleanup certainly wasn't cheap. There are those who say VA got a good deal, but I'm not so sure.
Maybe others can correct/clarify details.
Edit: PS I live in MD now, so I have no dog in this hunt.
My understanding is that the 'replacement' Quantico bridge project began in the early 80's - when there was no hint of VRE. It was built as a single track bridge as this was happening when CSX management was in their 'Plant Rationalization' mode and were trying to conserve investment as, at the time, it was felt that railroads didn't have much of a future. I 'think' the single track bridge was completed in the 1986-1988 time frame. VRE became a political reality in 1989-1990 or so and began operations 'I think' about 1992. In operation VRE requires their trains to operate on #2 track between AF & Fredericksburg because stations within each Control Points track segments can only handle passengers on #2 track. If required to work those stations on #3 track, absolute protection must be supplied in that block and passengers are required to walk across #2 track to reach the station's platform.
My understanding is that the State of Virginia and VRE provided the bulk of the funding for the double track bridge that was placed in service in 2005 or 2006. When the double track bridge was placed in service, the single track bridge was removed from service but still exists. It will become part of the new #1 track when that project is completed.
I've heard both sides of the ownership story, but I have always ubderstood that VA had considerable retirement funds invested in RF&P, which was a very profitable operation and essential to CSX operation. At the time of the change in ownership, at least two things were going on:
BaltACDThe RF&P was it's own entity and controlled by the State of Virginia.
1954 Moody's says RF&P "is controlled by the Richmond-Washington Company, which owns 39,247 shares out of 52,676 shares of voting common stock of the company.... The Richmond-Washington Company is a holding corporation controlled by" PRR-B&O-ACL-SAL-SR-C&O.
I know I've told this story before since I was here at the time, but...
Back around the time of CSX's purchase of the RF&P there were quite a few CSX locomotives that still had the paint schemes of their original owners, Seaboard, Family Lines, late C&O, you'd even see an occasional B&O unit. It seemed CSX wasn't in any hurry to repaint those old units, which was fun for the local railfans.
Not the RF&P units though! While they kept the blue and gray colors it seemed the RF&P markings on the locomotives (and the Acca Yard buildings) disappeared almost overnight! A fit of pique on CSX's part over the hard fight they had to purchase the RF&P? Who knows? Certainly the Commonwealth of Virginia wasn't going to give their shares away at a bargain basement price, they played hardball with CSX. Won too.
ROBERT WILLISONThe portions of the railroad was charter in 1854. It went thru a series of mergers to become a 119 mile bridge line. In 1901 it became a holding company owned jointly by the prr, acl, sal, c&o and the b&o. Just goggle it and you can see it's rather rich history.
The RF&P wasn't jointly owned by the carriers mentioned - Potomac Yard was and it was operated by the RF&P. The RF&P was it's own entity and controlled by the State of Virginia.
Was part of the deal the "new" VRE Commuter line?
Actual stock ownership was vested in the Virginia Retirement System at the time of the sale to CSX and VRS benifitted from the cash infusion from the sale.
I believe the state ended up holding 20% of the Richmond-Washington company, which was the original RF&P (Richmond-Quantico) Washington Southern (Potomac River in Arlington-Quantico, a Pennsylvania Railroad-backed company!) and Potomac Yard. The state resisted the sale of RF&P to CSX until Gov. Wilder sanctioned a deal in which RF&P was split into rail and real estate divisions. The state got the real estate, including the hazmat cleanup! The sale was in 1990, with operations fully integrated by October 1992.
I believe the state ended up holding 20% of the Richmond-Washington company, which was the original RF&P (Richmond-Quantico) Washington Southern (Potomac River in Arlington-Quantico, a Pennsylvania Railroad-backed company!) and Potomac Yard. The state resisted the sale of RF&P to CSX until Gov. Wilder sanctioned a deal in which RF&P was split into rail and real estate divisions. The state got the real estate, including the hazmat cleanup! And, I can't figure out why this posted twice, no how to delete one!
The portions of the railroad was charter in 1854. It went thru a series of mergers to become a 119 mile bridge line. In 1901 it became a holding company owned jointly by the prr, acl, sal, c&o and the b&o. Just goggle it and you can see it's rather rich history.
As I recall the state of VA either owned the ROW the stock or the railroad itself?
The railroad then was sold to CSX sometime in the early 1990s
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