Firelock76 You could always do what the Morris County Central in New Jersey did back in the 60's and 70's, burn waste oil. They used to send a tanker truck around to gas stations and auto repair shops that were glad to give it to them free just to be rid of it. I know those days are gone, though. I think even waste oil has a market value now. The Union Pacific steam shop has been using waste oil in 844 and 3985 since they converted 3985 to oil. Big advantage to oil firing is if they are low on fuel they can fill up at the same fuel rack the diesels use. i suspect UP will convert an auxiliary tender to 50% oil and water as a 4000 class engine will use a lot more fuel than the tender tank can hold. Out of the Steam Shop in Cheyenn, Wyoming the waste fuel of choice is biofue! It is delivered by the same type of 6 wheel home delivery truck that Delivers fuel to private homes. It's a Shame UP doesn't throw a sticker on both sides of the truck fueling their engines at Cheyenne. Something like " this truck fuels UP 844 in Cheyenne " just a thought. :)
You could always do what the Morris County Central in New Jersey did back in the 60's and 70's, burn waste oil. They used to send a tanker truck around to gas stations and auto repair shops that were glad to give it to them free just to be rid of it.
I know those days are gone, though. I think even waste oil has a market value now.
The Union Pacific steam shop has been using waste oil in 844 and 3985
since they converted 3985 to oil. Big advantage to oil firing is if they
are low on fuel they can fill up at the same fuel rack the diesels use.
i suspect UP will convert an auxiliary tender to 50% oil and water as
a 4000 class engine will use a lot more fuel than the tender tank can hold. Out of the Steam Shop in Cheyenn, Wyoming the waste fuel of choice is biofue! It is delivered by the same type of 6 wheel home delivery truck that
Perhaps a foreshadowing of things to come...
CSSHEGEWISCH Firelock76 Hey, I just had a thought. How about choppin' up and burning old tires? :) Lots of black smoke but the smell might be a bit of a problem
Firelock76 Hey, I just had a thought. How about choppin' up and burning old tires? :)
Hey, I just had a thought. How about choppin' up and burning old tires? :)
Hmmmm, never thought of that.
I know! Contact the Mega-Steam people (see their ad in Classic Toy Trains) and see if they can supply several hundred gallons of one of their scented smokes. I prefer "Coffee," but some might prefer "Lionel Smoke Pill."
Of course, there IS the problem of who's going to climb on top of the boiler and pour it down the smokestack.
Deep fryer oil now has a value for all the bio-diesel car owners. Restaurants don't give that stuff away anymore.
THIRTEEN REASONS WHY STEAM SHOULD RUN ON OIL NOT COAL
One pound of OIL contains as much heating value as 1.75 to 2 pounds of COAL. One pound of fuel oil will average from 17,000 to 20,000 BTU.
The oil advantage -
1 - Cost saving in handling oil from the production field to the firebox because of its fluidity. Also the smaller weight of oil to coal for equal BTU output.
2 - Lower manual labor in firing the locomotive boiler.
3 - No ash or cliker disposal to clean up after.
4 - Firing by oil valve adjustment compared to steam jet distruibution of coal in the firebox without stoker engine and auger system to maintain.
5 - Cleanliness of engine stack exhaust output in passenger terminal service.
6 - Oil fired engines have shorter turnaround and shop service compared to coal fired locomotives.
7 - Better combustion and more effective heating of boiler with the use of oil fuel compared to coal giving higher operating efficiency.
8 - Elimination of 2% to 10% loss due to coal degradation because of weathering.
9 - Danger of unwanted lineside fire risk from stack produced coal cinders.
10 - Oil fire locomotives are very quick firing from a cold start especially when the boiler is filled with hot water. About 40 minutes with oil.
11 - Cost savings in locomotive cleanup due to the absence of coal cinders and ash.
12 - Track maintaince reduction because of lower cinder and ash deposit destroying drainage of the roadbed.
13 - Increased boiler efficiency because of higher superheat temperature because of radiant heat reduction with oil firing.
------------------------
SIX DISADVANTAGES TO OIL FIRING COMPARED TO COAL FIRING
1 - Oil firing of steam locomotives causes reduced life of the firebox and boiler tubes and flues because of "sanding" needed to clean the boiler in operation. Cinders are softer on the internal boiler surfaces. Oil fire produces a more intense heat than a coal fire.
2 - Oil was $5 a barrel in the 1950's today more than $50 per barrel making cost saving of oil firing very market dependent.
3 - Large coal company discounts given to coal burning steam railroads.
4 - Oil price and supply uncertainty.
5 - Steam losses due to steam needed to atomize the oil as it is fed to the burner in the firebox. This constitutes about a 4% loss in locomotive boiler steam production.
6 - Additional steam loss due to the need to warm cold tender tank oil supplies.
--------------------
Doc
It willl be interesting to see how things look with 4014 on oil firing. 3985 seems to have a much more opaque exhaust in most instances - not all the time, but most of the time compared to when it was fired with coal.
I had the good fortune to see it run in person several times when I was living in Sacramento, including once at 65 mph pacing on an almost adjacent highway between Sacramento and Stockton, which was amazing to see, and another time seeing it coming back from some type of employee special function in Oakland. I was at Tracy where you could see it coming down the grade off of Altamont Pass for quite a ways, and then when it got on the flatlands at the base of the grade they really opened it up and absolutely ripped through town on their way back to Stockton.
3985 with coal firing...
Several shots of 3985 after conversion to oil firing (but admittedly, shots can be found of instances when it looks like it is back on coal)...
Heading to Denver with the Ringling Brothers Circus Train...
kgbw49 LOL on the Vesuvius-Big Boy frame!
LOL on the Vesuvius-Big Boy frame!
Showing the local sites to a visitor from Chile, I pointed out a circling turkey vulture at the university's arboretum, likening it to the Andean Condor.
Ordinarily visitors to the university try to be diplomatic when their US host says something lame, but that comparison did indeed evoke a chuckle.
Comparing the Big Boy stack to Mt Vesuvius is like comparing a turkey vulture to the Andean Condor? Just as both the Big Boy and the volcano shoot a lot of smoke, ash, and cinders into the sky, and just as the turkey vulture and the condor circle high in the sky on air currents looking for stuff to eat, there is the question of scale.
The turkey vulture is a kind of mini-condor just like the Big Boy is a nano-Vesuvius. These pairings do similar things, but one member of the pair is much, much bigger.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
An uncle of mine was in the Merchant Marine during World War Two and was in Naples harbor when Vesuvius erupted in 1944. He said it was scarier than when the Stukas came after them during the Med runs.
Yep.
Dr D, that is a fascinating list! Thanks for digging it up. In looking it over and reading all the great data regarding various coal sources, it does seem to explain why NP and UP fireboxes in particular were so enormous, and also why they had such large smokeboxes. And the amount of unburnable material sure does seem to explain some of those Big Boy photos where the locomotive looks like the next eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
The "Obama administrations environmental conservatism."
No, that's incorrect, it should be "environmental activism."
"Environmental conservatism" would involve burning as much coal as possible because you miss that good-old coal smoke smell!
Since the intern published figures from 1944 (over 60 years ago), it's within the realm of possibility that many of those mines have played out or the coal still in place cannot be economically recovered. Also see Fred Frailey's blog and related comments about an uptick in coal shipments from the PRB.
Clean air and water should not be viewed as a luxury.
Dr D ... I wonder how many of these famous coal producers used leased Federal Land and have been shut down by the OBAMA Administration's enviornmental conservatism? Its a fair question. ...
...
I wonder how many of these famous coal producers used leased Federal Land and have been shut down by the OBAMA Administration's enviornmental conservatism? Its a fair question.
It's not a fair question, it's a rhetorical question.
COMPARISON OF COAL MINED IN 1944 AND ITS QUALITY BY STATE
ALABAMA
Bituminous - Jefferson County - Warner Mine ------------ 13,628 BTU/lb
ARKANSAS
Bituminous - Sebastian County - Mine No. 12 ------------ 14,352 BTU/lb
COLORADO
Bituminous - Boulder County - Simpson Mine ------------- 12,577 BTU/lb
Lignite - Boulder County - Rex Mine ----------------------- 10,698 BTU/lb
ILLINOIS
Bituminous - Franklin County - Benton Mine -------------- 12,577 BTU/lb
Bituminous - St. Clair County - Maryville Mine ------------ 11,727 BTU/lb
INDIANA
Bituminous - Green County - Inland City Field ------------ 11,916 BTU/lb
IOWA
Bituminous - Polk County - Altoona No. 4 Mine ----------- 11,671 BTU/lb
KANSAS
Bituminous - Cherokee County - Cherokee Field ---------- 12,557 BTU/lb
KENTUCKEY
Bituminous - Hopkins County - Barnsley Mine ------------ 13,036 BTU/lb
MARYLAND
Semi Bituminous - Alleghany County - Big Vein Field ---- 14,692 BTU/lb
Semi Bituminous - Garrett County - Washington No. 3 -- 14,033 BTU/lb
MISSOURI
Bituminous - Lafayette County - Higbee Mine ------------ 12,500 BTU/lb
NORTH DAKOTA
Lignite - Lehigh County - Lehigh Mine -------------------- 10,121 BTU/lb
OHIO
Bituminous - Belmont County - Neff Coal Co. ------------ 12,843 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Jackson County - Superior Coal Co. ------- 11,704 BTU/lb
OAKLAHOMA
Bituminous - Creek County - Henrietta Mine ------------ 12,834 BTU/lb
PENNSLYVANIA
Anthracite - Luzerne County - Rtston Mine --------------- 12,865 BTU/lb
Anthracite - Luzerne County - Mammoth Mine ----------- 13,720 BTU/lb
Anthracite - Luzerne County - Exeter Mine --------------- 12,400 BTU/lb
Anthracite - Lehigh County - Lehigh & Wilkes Coal Co. -- 12,848 BTU/lb
Semi Bituminous - Cambria County - Penn. Coal & Coke - 14,279 BTU/lb
Semi Bituminous - Clearfield County - Eureka Mine ------ 13,770 BTU/lb
Semi Bituminous - Huntington County - Carbon Mine ---- 13,770 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Cambria County - Lincoln Mine ------------- 13,600 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Fayette County - Connellsville Field -------- 13,775 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Washington County - Ellsworth Mine ------- 14,013 BTU/lb
TENNESSEE
Bituminous - Scott County - Glenn Mary Mine ------------ 14,625 BTU/lb
TEXAS
Bituminous - Paolo Pinto County - Thurber Mine --------- 12,760 BTU/lb
Lignite - Houston County - Crockett Field ---------------- 10,886 BTU/lb
VIRGINIA
Bituminous - Lee County - Wilson Mine ------------------- 13,931 BTU/lb
WEST VIRGINIA
Semi Bituminous - Fayette County - Rush Run Mine ----- 14,959 BTU/lb
Semi Bituminous - McDowell County - Zenith Mine ------ 14,480 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Kanawha County - Keystone Mine --------- 14,202 BTU/lb
Bituminous - Marion County - Kingmont Mine ----------- 14,198 BTU/lb
Bituminious - Mingo County - Glen Alum Mine ---------- 14,414 BTU/lb
WYOMING
Lignite - Sheridan County - Monarch Mine --------------- 12,316 BTU/lb
Lignite - Unita County - Lazeart Mine -------------------- 9,868 BTU/lb
-----------------------------
As a reminder according to the KENT method of classification that ANTHRACITE are all coals with volatiles less than 7% non burnable matter. SEMI-BITUMINOUS are all coals with volatiles 12-25% non burnable. BITUMINOUS coals have volatiles 25-50% non burnable. LIGNITE coals have volatiles of more than 50% non burnable.
The ANTHRACITE coals produces less heat than the SEMI-BITUMINOUS but has more total combustion producing less smoke and ash.
In the UNITED STATES, it looks like the Run Rush Mine in Fayette County, West Virginia produced the highest heat coal at 14,959 BTU/lb. With Tennessee, Scott County Glenn Mary Mine and Maryland, Allegheny County Big Vein a close second in the 14,600 BTU/lb range. These were SEMI-BITUMINOUS coals. Western Maryland Scenic would do well with that product for the C&O 1304 steam up for less smoke they could go with the ANTHRACITE.
The low heat LIGNITE - 10,121 BTU/lb was from North Dakota, Lehigh County, Lehigh Mine and probably why Northern Pacific developed the big 2-8-8-2 with the worlds largest 128 sq foot Lignite firebox to burn it - 50% of the product didn't burn. Even lower was LIGNITE mined in Wyoming, Unita County, Lazeart in the 9,868 BTU/lb range. If Union Pacific was using this coal field it was really an economy issue. Wyoming also produced a Sheridan County Lignite from the Monarch Mine with 12,300 BTU/lb which is a very high high heat value for LIGNITE considering it is still 50% unburnable.
I was also surprised at the number of states that produced good coal. Considering the added cost of shipping coal? I have no doubt that most local railroads would have used local on line products if possible.
------------
Gramp Did any of the railroads own the coal mines that supplied the coal their engines used? Any idea how many tons of coal the larger railroads used in a year? Thanks
Did any of the railroads own the coal mines that supplied the coal their engines used? Any idea how many tons of coal the larger railroads used in a year?
Thanks
Overmod 54light15 I assume that would have had a mechanical stoker? One of the understatements of the year. Note that the subbituminous burned in the UP 4-8-8-4s was not much 'better' than the NP's lignite. It was in fact so friable that much of the actual combustion was carried out much as in pulverized coal firing, entirely above the 'grates' in the radiant combustion gas spaces. As you might imagine, this led to considerable 'wasted fuel' in a number of respects, control over the firing and load being relatively random and slowly controlled compared to what's possible in a good modern PC-fired powerplant boiler.
54light15 I assume that would have had a mechanical stoker?
One of the understatements of the year.
Note that the subbituminous burned in the UP 4-8-8-4s was not much 'better' than the NP's lignite. It was in fact so friable that much of the actual combustion was carried out much as in pulverized coal firing, entirely above the 'grates' in the radiant combustion gas spaces. As you might imagine, this led to considerable 'wasted fuel' in a number of respects, control over the firing and load being relatively random and slowly controlled compared to what's possible in a good modern PC-fired powerplant boiler.
CSSHEGEWISCHThe cover of that issue also featured a Gil Reid painting of the "Snuff Dipper".
At least for a while, here it is:
That's the article. The cover of that issue also featured a Gil Reid painting of the "Snuff Dipper".
CSSHEGEWISCHTRAINS had an intriguing article some years back about T&P's less-than-successful experiment with lignite. The price of oil had risen and T&P looked at the lignite being mined in East Texas as an alternative. A oil-fired 2-10-2 was converted to burn the stuff and it didn't really work out.
Was this "The Snuff Dipper and the Yellow Dog Blues" (October '72?)
The Fuller-Lehigh equipment was tested on a Lehigh Valley locomotive previously (1360), and there was an Italian attempt to use it.
IGN might have some interesting comments about 'snuff dipper' locomotives, since the International Great Northern appears to have had a few.
TRAINS had an intriguing article some years back about T&P's less-than-successful experiment with lignite. The price of oil had risen and T&P looked at the lignite being mined in East Texas as an alternative. A oil-fired 2-10-2 was converted to burn the stuff and it didn't really work out.
54light15I assume that would have had a mechanical stoker?
There have been some interesting experiments with multiple-pass boilers and staged preheat of lignite for steam generation which might -- "might" -- be applicable to locomotives. If we exempted them from EPA and some other requirements and ran them under very carefully controlled conditions. Somewhat highly unlikely conditions, in my opinion.
I assume that would have had a mechanical stoker?
Good question with large subject area!
Lignite coal had the least energy content and in some cases was almost unburnable. It produced low heat value a lot of slag and ash. For this reason it was "cheap". Now "cheap" was a great attraction for cost conscious railroad accountants and profit margin analysists - sooOOOO!
Several railroad engineering departments went to work on the problem of "how to burn the 'cheap' stuff."
Northern Pacific Railroad developed a unique articulated 2-8-8-4 locomotive called the "Yellowstone" Type with absolutely gigantic 128 sq ft firebox for this purpose - to burn on line Lignite coal - called Rosebud coal - cheaply! They did this by creating the worlds largest locomotive firebox - actually too large - which could burn large amounts of the low grade Rosebud coal to get the necessary heat to make steam.
The firebox on these 3000 series engines was so large the railroad as an introductory stunt had the inside painted white - installed a dining room table and chairs - and served a formal candle light dinner for 12 people inside the locomotive firebox!
Yah! thats what I call a historic publicity stunt!
The firebox was too large on the NP 3000 class and the engines produced less than 5000 horsepower so the railroad ended up blocking off the front two feet of the firebox to effectively use the engines. The 3000 class was built in the 1920s and lasted in use until the late 1950's so I guess it was a successful design. None were saved.
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cx500I suspect there will be a number of situations where coal mines were not owned directly by the railroad, but the railroad had substantial ownership interest in the mining companies. The railroad might be the mine's best customer, but it was free to serve others too, such as domestic heating.
Wouldn't the Hepburn Act prohibit that after 1906?
I suspect there will be a number of situations where coal mines were not owned directly by the railroad, but the railroad had substantial ownership interest in the mining companies. The railroad might be the mine's best customer, but it was free to serve others too, such as domestic heating.
In Southeastern Kansas, The Coal Seams in Cherokee and Crawford Counties were used by the MKT RR (Missouri,Kansas and Texas Coal Co) and the Santa Fe RR (Santa Fe Coal Co) to supply coal for locomotives.
The Santa Fe mine near Frontenac Kansas was the scene in 1888 of an explosion that killed 150 miners (Still the State's largest mining disaster).
The Katy had mines in the area of Scammon, and Weir to provide coal for their use. In the early 1900's Chicopee Kansas (Cherokee County Ks) was a large community served by the Santa Fe RR and Missouri Pacific RR to move the mined coal for their locomotives,and commerce.
The Kansas City Southern also sourced locomotive coal from the mines of the Pittsburg, Ks. area as well.
This Coal field, The Pittsburg-Weir Coal Field was, over its lifetime in the late 1800's to its' last mine shut down in late 1960's of between 200 and 250 million tons of coal.
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