I don't know how to politely respond to Ms Taylor. Is there a state arborist that can attend to her caboose?
I feel for the CMRR. If they did a scorched-earth retreat, I wouldn't blame them.
To bump this topic ... and to note that Catskill Mountain isn't the only entity that gets fallout of the wrong kinds ... there was a recent report in everyone's favorite Daily Freeman about a complaint at a recent town meeting, a complaint that the Empire State Railroad Museum was conspiring somehow with the Catskill Mountain people to preserve those awful train cars and stuff before they can be decently scrapped. I thought the following response to the story (reposted on RyPN) was worthwhile passing along, for a number of reasons. (I do not know if the bold-facing was in the original or added for RyPN, but it does add a certain salutory emphasis...)
A response from Paul LaPierre of the ESRM:"Typically, as with many articles relating to anything railroad, there was no contact by the reporter of this article with the Empire State Railway Museum regarding the work being done on our property. As the ESRM Board member overseeing the work let me assure one and all that yes, we are cutting trees and overgrown brush, removing accumulated flood debris, and cleaning up the remaining debris from the site of a trailer on a parcel at the west end of our property that we purchased three years ago. The purpose is to make way for two sidings on our property leading from our barn so that we, the ESRM, NOT the Catskill Mountain Railroad, can move ESRM cars(of which there are currently seven, one due for de-accesion), and our steam locomotive( recently moved from the former CMRR yard in Kingston) in and out of the barn as necessary for RESTORATION and DISPLAY. Operation of ESRM equipment on active track is not part of our mission as a New York State Chartered not-for-profit corporation. The locomotive currently resides on track formerly leased by the CMRR and they and we have until 31 July to be off that property---hence the urgency to lay a second track to the barn to accommodate the locomotive. As an aside, the locomotive is very unlikely to enter service under steam, the cost of such a restoration being beyond the resources of the ESRM, and the U&D rails being, as I understand it from those who know, too light for the weight of the operating engine."On last Friday afternoon I encountered Anique Taylor and Aaron Bennett, of the County Environmental office on the ESRM property. After introductions I asked if they had questions concerning what was going on, and during a conversation lasting the better part of 45 minutes, they left, seemingly satisfied with my assurances that: (a) the ESRM was not doing work on County property (I showed Mr.Bennett the recently surveyed property markers), and (b) the tree cutting was a permitted activity on our property under the Town of Shandaken Zoning law. The concrete "girders" to which Ms. Taylor refers are "Jersey barriers", commonly seen along highway construction sites as temporary lane dividers. We are installing them below grade to protect the foundation of our Station building ( scoured out to a depth of almost ten feet by a storm several years ago) and the footings of the barn on the south side from being undermined during a flood event such as tropical storm Irene. They do not divert surface runoff from the course it currently follows, and their installation has been approved by Warren Hutt, the Town Building Inspector. Additionally, as the activity is not in the FLOODWAY, but rather in the fringe area of the floodplain as defined by the current flood plain map, there is no need for a floodplain development permit for this type of installation."Ms. Taylor is someone who had been concerned three years ago when the ESRM applied to the Shandaken Planning Board for a building permit for the barn. Her concerns were with the proposed activities to be conducted on that site, i.e. railcar restoration, and were, to my understanding at the time, satisfied by our assurances that nothing environmentally illegal nor otherwise untoward would be happening on our site. Similar and other concerns expressed by the County Planning Board were addressed at the Town Zoning Board of Appeals hearing and were deemed sufficient for the ZBA to issue a super-majority decision in favor of the ESRM proposal. I reassured Ms. Taylor that we were NOT doing work on behalf of the CMRR, that it was only in support of ESRM activities as defined by our Charter. On Friday, as we parted, she seemed satisfied by my explanation and assurances that it is our desire to be not only a good neighbor, but an asset to the Town and the Village of Phoenicia."Today I encountered the Town Supervisor at the Museum and learned that Ms. Taylor and Kathy Nolan had appeared at last night's Board meeting to object to the ESRM project, apparently on the grounds that it is in service to the needs of the CMRR. As stated above, that is NOT the case, and considering our conversation on Friday, I am surprised by Ms. Taylors' comments. She apparently is reacting under the influence of someone who would rather act on the presumption of a worst case scenario than by speaking directly with the party whose activities she finds objectionable. Certainly not unprecedented behavior when it comes to anything railroad related."We have heard nothing from the "neighbors on the street," and, the neighbor on Station Road within whose view we are most immediate, had no objection when I explained to him what we were planning for the site. His primary concern was with regard to the deteriorating baggage car, which we can all agree is pretty unsightly, but which is intended for removal, either to an interested party for restoration, as a parts donor, or, worst case, to be scrapped. Additionally, according to the Supervisor, the nearest neighbor on Lower High Street has said that she prefers what we are doing to the unsightly, unkempt situation that has existed until now."Once we have addressed the immediate need to move all of our equipment onto ESRM property we will begin restoration of screening vegetation between the ESRM tracks and the neighbors on Lower High Street. It is not our intention to create an eyesore at the expense of our neighbors' well being, and Ms. Taylor's concern that we will become a "construction site, factory, or decaying rail yard" are unfounded and ill-informed. Those who seek to criticize the activities of the ESRM and purport to know what our mission is as a New York State Chartered not-for-profit Corporation should at least have the courtesy and common sense to learn what that mission is, speak directly to those carrying out that mission, and believe that that entity is acting honorably and responsibly until they do otherwise."I apologize for the length of this response, but it is necessary to correct the impression that the ESRM is behaving highhandedly and irresponsibly, and sadly, this is the second time I have had to respond to an ill-informed and poorly prepared article in this newspaper by this reporter, the first having to do with the construction of our car barn several years ago. I hope this clears up whatever misconceptions exist regarding our activities, and I invite any one with questions to connect the ESRM or me."
Another tourist railroad. I saw the two seat rail bike at a local trains show. Rail Explorers also has a four seat bike.
Even at seventy five, I ride paved rail trails in Western Mass on my bike in my area a lot. Probably this might happen there also. Some in Ct are dirt trails.
http://www.wptz.com/news/potentially-big-changes-for-remsenlake-placid-railroad/37089722
I have been to Steamtown a few times and see all the maintenance a steamer requires.
Times are changing and many cannot accept that.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
There are always a couple of exceptions to every list. Dr. D's chronology is accurate for the general synopsis of that it was intended to be.
Some interesting exceptions to the fine synopsis:
Great Northern rebuilt O-8 Mikados with 69 inch drivers (the firebox was so large it could have been on a four wheel truck)...
Green Bay & Western picked up three 64 inch drivered Mikados in 1937 and another three in 1939...
Detroit, Toledo & Ironton, after purchasing six 2-8-4 Berkshires with 63 inch drivers in 1935 then went back to the Mikado, picking up twelve with 63 inch drivers in batches of four each in 1940, 1941 and 1944...
DT&I Berkshire...
DT&I Mikado...
Here is one of those Reading Pacifics that Dave mentioned...
Missouri Pacific rebuilt some 69-inch-drivered Mountains into Class MT75 with 75 inch drivers...
Here is one of those Boston and Maine Pacifics that Dave mentioned...
And of course, CP was producing G3 heavy Pacifics, G5 light Pacifics, and P2 Mikados into the late 1940s...
G3 Heavy Pacific...
G5 Light Pacific...
P2 Mikado...
Pacifics continued to be built after 1930. The Boston and Maine got some in the mid-'30s, and the Reading built some after WWII!
Dr D - production of 2-8-0 "Consolidation" engines was about 33,000 - production of 2-8-2 "Mikado" engines was about 14,000 - production of 4-6-2 "Pacific" engines was about 6,800 - production of 2-8-4 "Berkshire" engines was about 750 - production of 4-8-4 "Northern" engines was about 1,000 Think about these numbers the next time you observe the handful of surviving examples in museum, park and tourist operation and have to deal with their operation and or preservation. Doc
- production of 2-8-0 "Consolidation" engines was about 33,000
- production of 2-8-2 "Mikado" engines was about 14,000
- production of 4-6-2 "Pacific" engines was about 6,800
- production of 2-8-4 "Berkshire" engines was about 750
- production of 4-8-4 "Northern" engines was about 1,000
Think about these numbers the next time you observe the handful of surviving examples in museum, park and tourist operation and have to deal with their operation and or preservation.
Doc
The Bard of the High Iron does it again! Thank you again, Dr. D, for a most enjoyable read!
TOURIST LOCOMOTIVES
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The USATC S160 2-8-0 "Consolidation" military engines bring to mind the common "tourist railroad" which is often powered with smaller antique types of steam locomotives.
The US military Transportation Command in World War II built over 2000 of the little 2-8-0 "Consolidation" type engines which brings to mind the very small numbers of larger steam locomotives built at the end of the steam era.
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TYPE AND NUMBER OF COMMON ENGINES PRODUCED -
Lets start with the 2-8-0 "Consolidation" type of which the astronomical number of US military engines were copied. The 2-8-0 was the workhorse on practically all of the railroads in the United States. It was built in large numbers from 1866 to 1916 for freight service primarily for greater adhesion on the drive wheels. This engine was never built with drive wheels greater than 63" or 64." Common speeds were up to 40 or 50 miles per hour with this design. A simple and rugged engine that for many years represented the maximum financial return of steam locomotive investment that a railroad could make. Heavier 2-8-0 engine designs were later benefited with mechanical stokers and superheaters.
In the United States more 2-8-0 "Consolidations" were built than any other locomotive type - over 33,000 were built, and 21,000 were for mainline service.
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2-8-2 "Mikado" aka "Mike" this common freight engine was built in larger numbers than any other engine with a 2 wheel trailer truck between the years of 1905 and 1930. The 2-8-2 was among the most successful freight locomotives ever built. The first truely successful engines built for service in the United States were for the Northern Pacific Railroad in 1905 a design which had 43 sq ft of grate was not stoker equipped. After 1916 most all of these type of engines had a "combustion chamber" included in their firebox design and superheaters and stokers were also generally applied by all railroads. The 2-8-2 "Mikado" was a well balanced engine with good riding stability and was never built with drive wheel diameter greater than 64."
The design of the 2-8-2 "Mikado" really obsoleted its predecessor design of the 2-8-0 "Consolidation." Over 14,000 of the 2-8-2 "Mikado" type of engine were built.
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4-6-2 "Pacific" locomotive was continuously built from 1902 to 1930 as a passenger locomotive design but was also adopted for freight service. It was the "standard high speed engine" in the United States for many years, equipped with drive wheel diameters of up to 80." When the Pennsylvania Railroad did its development design work for the K-4 engines at the Altoona Test Plant, it was shown the necessity of the design for a "firebox combustion chamber" which designs gave an increase in power from 2,600 indicated horsepower to 3,200 indicated horsepower.
The 4-6-2 "Pacific" engines were eventually built with all the modern improvements including mechanical stokers and roller bearings - about 6,800 of the 4-6-2 engines were built in the United States.
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2-8-4 "Berkshire" was developed from the 2-8-2 "Mikado" design and was built first for the New York Central Railroad as a freight engine. Production of this type of locomotive lasted from 1925 until 1949 in the United States. The engine type was improved by the Erie Railroad in 1927 with the inclusion of 70" drive wheels and larger boiler and firebox resulting unprecidented operating savings for fast freight service.
The last locomotives built by American Locomotive Company and LIma Locomotive Company in 1949 were the 2-8-4 "Berkshire" design - giving a total production of about 750 of this type of engine to be built in the United States.
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4-8-4 "Northern" was built in early 1927 for the Northern Pacific Railroad with a very large grate for burning Lignite coal. It was afterwards built for the Delaware, Lackawana & Western for Bituminous coal. The 4-8-4 was a development from the 4-8-2 "Mountain" design for both high speed freight and passenger service. The 4-8-2 design was never built with drive wheels over 74" but the 4-8-4 "Northern" was built with drive wheel diameters up to 80" and it was also the first locomotive design to be fully roller bearing equipped. The "Northern" was an extremely stable riding locomotive at high speed. These locomotives were also built in the time of advanced steam development in the United States and included many advancements such as superheater, stoker, one piece steel frames.
The Union Pacific locomotives built in 1939, the Santa Fe designs of 1944, and the New York Central designs of 1946 were among the most outstanding steam locomotives ever built in the United States - production total of all produced was a mere 1,000 engines of this type.
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Your story brings to mind The Rebel RR in Tenesee. My family (from NJ) visited there in the mid 60's. We were afaid to open our mouths. You could very well taste the disdain that Southerners still had for Northerners. We were all given "rifles" and were instructed to shoot at the "Yankee Camp" which we would come across during the trip. When we passed the camp we all started shooting. The "yankees" started running around like stupid idiots, with some having the pants shot off of them. I don't recall if any were actually "killed" as this was "clean, family entertainment"! I was about 7 years old at the time. I never forgot that, but like you with the Reader RR I remember it for the wrong reasons.
Back in 1970 traveling with my folks through the western USA, I had a copy of Ron Zeil's book Twilight of Steam he covered the Reader Railroad in Arkansas. Ron portrayed the Reader as a hard scrabble southern steam operation run out of a couple of tin buildings by local steam mechanics who could and did keep a couple of old turn of the century steamers running in back woods fashion.
At the time I visited the Reader RR, I didn't realize that this would be the last year of any major freight operation. The 32 mile tourist/freight line included a several hour steam passenger run with a couple of old steel coaches painted green traveling throught the turpentine woods to the "picnic site" where the steam engine was turned on an armstrong turntable and then recoupled to run back the other direction.
I was, however, disapointed to find the steam locomotive running at the time of my visit was RR1702, a former military US Army Transportation Corps S160 class 2-8-0 "consolidation" built for operation in Europe during the Second World War. While a fairly modern high power locomotive it was definitely built for the needs of European railroads with their very tight clearances, and as a result was quite a homely compact steamer by most traditional standards.
The engine had been converted to oil firing and was also painted southern style as a Western American engine and as such presented itself with a kind of bastard appearance which would have come across much better if it had been left in Army green with US military markings. The red painted cab roof and silver smokebox with Pyle headlight just did not work well.
At any rate, dad and I bought the "cab ride" option while my sister an mom rode the coaches. We spent the day with the engine crew, a couple of redneck boys whose distain for us eventually drove us to ride the tender top. Having signed releases of liability they could have cared less. This was a fine view except for the choking trailing smoke plume which oiled us up quite a bit - but at least we got away from the obvious unpleasantries.
I do remember there were a number of "on line" industries for the Reader RR to serve and was the obvious reason for its continued existance. They served the needs of the southern woods which included some type of oil refinery and a lumber mill logging operation. The engine crew complained about their future with the oil refinery discontinuing operation.
The little Army 2-8-0 packed quite a punch and ran extremely well - dad having been a US Army Captain who commanded a troop train on the L&N in the war identified well with this fairly modern military engine.
We came to a point in the return trip when the fireman said to his engineer - "couple of colored boys lounging in the woods - coming up on the left side - lets give'em a treat!" At precisely the timed moment - a boiler blowdown cut loose into the negro group which tumbled out of their leasure in startled fashion - and a little redneck moment followed - loud guf haw! and continued laughter from the cab.
It was a steam trip I was glad that was over, as those southern boys were really a bit too much for my taste - I have to say that much of the south was "that way" in those days.
I never cared much for the Reader RR in spite of the time I spent there. Those Arkansas woods were charming and very beautiful, but the people and the culture were fearful. It was a hard land - as hard as the fundamentalist evangelical Christian religion that schooled it.
I believe the Reader RR called itself "The Possom Trot Line."
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History - Over 2000 of the military 160 class 2-8-0 were built and left around the world after the war - Austria scrapped 30. Czechoslovakia had 80 which ran until 1972. France had 121 which it sold elsewhere in Europe. Germany had 40 which it sold to Hungary. Greece had 27 and bought 25 more from Italy. Hungary had 510 engines with 25 kept just for parts. Italy had 244 engines and salvaged 4 more from sunken war transports. Withdrawn from service in the 1960's, most were oil fired. Poland had 75 engines and acquired 500 more from the US Army. The Soviet Union had 200 engines 50 were for 3' 6" gauge track. Spain bought 6 from Alaska in 1958. Turkey had 50 locomotives. England used 174 on the Greas Western Railroad, 168 on the North Eastern Railroad, 50 on the London, Midland and Scottish Railroad, and 6 more on the Southern Railroad. Yugoslavia had 80 engines. Many victims of war are shipwrecked on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
In Africa, Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia had 243 engines which went to Italy! Mexico had 10 locomotives and Peru had 2. China had an unknowen number which served until 1997. India had 60 engines assembled into 5'6" track gauge, of which 45 were in service in 1977. North and South Korea both had these engines in service in the Korean War.
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Technical - The infamous US Military USATC 2-8-0 "consolidations" had several design problems and several suffered boiler explosions in England during the Second World War. They were designed for mass production and not long service life. Axle box lubrication was poor owing to inefficient grease lubricators. Brake design was a Westinghouse steam brake for the engine with too much distance between the engine control and the brake cylinder. Firebox design was poor in the crown stays also the engines had only one unreliable water gauge in the cab. This unfortunately read high when the boiler water was dangerously low. The crown stays would collapse under heat tension with low water level and little warning. With catastrophic results. In one ten month period three English engines suffered crown sheet collapse with one death in November 1943.
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Survivors - Three engines are in Nottinghamsire, England, one is under restoration. Two engines are in Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, England one is restored, and one under restoration. One is at Stockton-onTees, England under restoration. One more at West Yorkshire, England returned to service in 2014.
Warsaw, Poland has three one in the Warsaw railway museum. Three are in Hungary, one is operational in the Budapest at the Hungarian Railway Museum. One Greek enguine is stored in Thessaloniki. Two are in two different railway museums in Turkey.
Seven engines are in the United States, one in Anchorage, Alaska, another in Wasilla, Alaska undergoing restoration, one in Crew Railroad Museum in Virginia, one at the US Army Transportation Museum in Fort Eustis, Virginia, one at the Age of Steam Roundhouse in Sugarcreek, Ohio. One engine was modified with ultra modern poppet valve gear is in Eckhart Mines, Maryland. One more engine is at the Tennessee Valley railroad Museum in Chattanooga, Tenn.
My old friend, Reader Railroad 1702 now resides at Great Smoky Mountains Railroad, undergoing restoration at Dillsboro, North Carolina.
CSSHEGEWISCH Cadillac & Lake City originally came to be as a freight-hauling short line that happened to use second-hand steam locomotives. Like many short lines of that period, all it accomplished was to postpone the inevitable abandonment for lack of traffic. ...
Cadillac & Lake City originally came to be as a freight-hauling short line that happened to use second-hand steam locomotives. Like many short lines of that period, all it accomplished was to postpone the inevitable abandonment for lack of traffic.
...
C&LC's major customer was the co-op in Falmouth, which was caught up in the PBB Feed crisis, where fire retardant was accidentally mixed with cattle feed in the early 1970s. Eventually it was bought out by the co-op in McBain on the Ann Arbor RR. In 1976 when I was moving into the area, they were tearing up the C&LC, except for the last 5 miles to Missaukee Junction. Those rusting rails lasted until about 1990. A developer bought the ROW, and now homes and trailers sit on the old grade thru the woods.
I rode the line in 1971, when they leased the CP 4-6-2 from Steamtown. I understand this was the 4-6-2 that blew up on the Gettysburg RR about 20 years ago.
I remember the Cadillac & Lake City Railway well. We came across it in summer 1968, when we stopped at its M-66 rail crossing near missaukee junction. We had plans to go camping at Indian River, but took unplanned ride on the CLK. Was nice strolling streets of Lake City, window shopping and getting some ice cream, then riding another train back to Missaukee Junction. Shame, that it and so many other michigan lines like Coe Rail/later Michigan Air Line, Reese Central, Leelanau Scenic/Leelanau Transit, Boyne Valley/Boyne City, and now probaly Charlotte Southern are gone.
SD70 glad to hear the Prairie Dog Central is doing well and gearing up for the 2016 season with its ancient steam locomotive. Glad to know the magazine i read that mentioned the Prairie Dog Central was incorrect. Nice to know the shortline is doing well. We dont have standard gauge torurist line here in michigan using steam locomotive.
Lake Superior & Ishpeming is still a fascinating operation after they dropped steam. They were noted for a primarily Alco roster with a few GE's tossed in for variety. The Alcos were replaced by U-boats and Dash-7's, which still made it attractive to the next generation of enthusiasts.
Some of the other Michigan tourist operations that are gone: Boyne Valley; Leelanaw Transit; Keweenaw Central; Kalamazoo, Lake Michigan Western (EDIT: Kalamazoo, Lake Shore & Chicago); Reese Central; Traverse Dinner Train; and Coe Rail/Star Clipper Dinner Train.
Love your passion Doc D, but I've got to disagree with you on something.
I'm sure an old LS&I fan like yourself gets a little miffed seeing "Wild Mary" markings on that 2-8-0 but you've got to remember, it's THEIR engine! They own it, they pay for the upkeep, so they've got every right to mark it as they see fit.
Hey, if it was mine I'd probably slap Erie or Susquehanna markings on it!
That old C&O 2-6-6-2? I wouldn't worry about that one, it'll probably be restored with C&O markings. After all they don't own that one, it's a "loaner."
Michigan had two small tourist lines that I watched fall. The first was the Cadillac & Lake City which ran a small lumber railroad 2-8-2 from Poison River and Saginaw. The cute little line was a former Pennsylvania Railroad branch line into the forever lost woods of Michigan's central lower peninsula. The little "mike" ran from around 1963 into the early 1970's and was the homeliest looking railroad I ever saw. One or two coaches of questionable heritage pulled by the engine forward for 20 miles and then run around the train and pulling it backwards for the return trip. Was kinda cute to see it run ahead on the morning trip through the woods.
Myself, raised on the NYC hudsons tearing through the northland and the Pennsy K4's running up the west side of the state the little logging mike lacked glory - but it was steam!
The railroad pulled up roots and tracks and went out west to operate a section of the old Rock Island and then abandon that line also.
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Lake Superior & Ishpeming Railroad was a mining railroad in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. This was some serious heavy trackage and real BULL 2-8-0 "consolidation" locomotives. Three of these survived into the tourist business on the Marquette and Huron Mountain Railroad. Which was a fantastic historic trip of original engines running on original track.
The railroad hauled heavey iron ore loads and the railroad was built to stop and start these loads in a land of heavy winter railroading. The tourist line ran into the 1970's before abandonment.
For those of you who have never been to Michigan's upper peninsula it is a land that time forgot. Closer geographically to Wisconson but in a political move given to Michigan it is a romantic place lost to the modern world - yah NO EXPRESSWAYS!
I remember arriving in Marquette in the 1970's and getting a motel room for the trip the next day. A trip to the rail yard found LS&I 28 hot and with no watchman. Just a padlock on the throttle and the fire banked. Yah you can bet I played that steam whistle before leaving back for my motel room.
It was a great 25 mile trip of the original locomotive on the original mainline. I envied the folks who live there and could see the steam railroad operate day after day as if it was an ordinary part of American life today.
The massive 2-8-0 LS&I 28 is today still going masqurading on Western Maryland - and has sadly been disguised as a WM locomotive. You guys can't fool anyone with that "ersatz" styling job - come on! History is history!
Glad she's still running though and no you cannot take the C&O 2-6-6-2 and make it look Western Maryland - it just doesn't work!
I have heard nothing about the Prairie Dog Central being in trouble or shutting down, to the contrary they are gearing up for the 2016 summer operating season, and according to their website plan to use their ancient steam locomotive on an increased number of runs this year.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
The Catskill Mtn and the Adirondack Scenic are only facing partial shut downs so far. The Denver & Rio Grande tourist RR in the South Fork/Creede area of Colorado, which operated with large speeders, is for sale. Many of the tourist trains I rode in the last 50 years have gone out of business.
lately have been reading about troubles of north american tourist railroads in canada and the united states, and wondered how many ahve shut down or will be soon. Ones i have heard which have shut down or face good possibility of that happening, included Catskill Mountains, Adirondack Scenic, Lake Superior & Mississippi, Prairie Dog Central, Stillwater & St. Paul, and many more. Any word on the Toledo, Lake Erie & western and Fremont & Elkhorn Valley (Fremont Northern now i believe) are these two operating or shut down also?
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