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Flying Scotsman sets speed record on this day (11/30) in 1934

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Posted by Gunneral on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 5:48 PM

BaltACD

I am wondering what the tender capacity was for it to be able to run non-stop for 422 miles?  Observation of English locomotives of the period, I doubt that their tender capacities would permit operation of that distance without replenishing the supplies of both fuel and water.  I know picking up water on the fly was commonplace, however picking up fuel on the fly????


With respect to your Flying Scotsman tender capacities query, these tenders were built in 1928 for the express services on the LNER`s East Coast Main Line to enable non stop running between London Kings Cross and Edinburgh`s Waverly Stations. These corridor tenders were built to enable footplate crew changes on the run and to carry sufficient coal for the non stop journey, they had a capacity of 9 long tons of coal and 5,000 UK gallons of water, and were fitted with scoops for water pick up from water troughs during the run.

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Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, December 9, 2015 1:01 PM

timz
Dr D
it doesn't make these facts any less historically significant!
If they were facts they'd be significant, all right. Everyone agrees PRR 7002's run thru Lima at 125 mph would be significant, if it happened.

 
That differential is so wildly high that it has to be an artifact.  If you look at what happened if AY sent his time as "by" (meaning when the last car passed his tower) and Elida sent his time as when the locomotive arrived at his tower, you get about this speed for the three or so miles.
 
I have a deeper contention with Dr. D's point, which is somewhat related both to 'the world will little note or long remember' and to the general acceptance of good-sounding history over true and factual history.  There is tremendous romance (even leaving national pride aside) in 112+ mph for NYC 999 or 127+ for PRR 7002.  Likewise, there's a certain 'in the know' cred for buying into the PRR T1 being an impossibly slippery failure and hopeless dog.  While we are on the general subject of George Washington, there's Parson Weems' story about a hatchet and a cherry tree. 
 
Problem is, in real history, none of these things turns out to be particularly true, and when you actually look at them, the necessary proof gets less and less the more you investigate.  Do we actually want to incorporate wives' tales into discussions of railroad history just because we wanted to?  I would argue the truth is better served by discussing the tall tales and wishful thinking as 'historical artifacts' themselves -- much the same, I might add, for any Brit who tries to fib his or her way into claiming 126 mph for Mallard, or uses selective sourcing to justify a claim of 'first or fastest' that just happens to make the home island's stuff look best (City of Truro, debunkers all?)
 
Yes, Americans have a long and well-established history of loving tall tales and bigger-than-life achievements.  We also have a fairly good record of quietly achieving things that are considerably better, when and if actually put to a test,  than better-advertised or more snarkily promoted things.  Do I think Mr. Bruce was talking through his store teeth when he mentioned Milwaukee As running faster than 128 mph?  I don't know, and more particularly I'm not going to come out and say that deserves to be considered as the 'record' speed ... it isn't amenable to the right kind of independent confirmation and proof that would be appropriate.  But I think a very strong engineering case could be made that the locomotive, if put in service today, could reach that speed.
 
What I do NOT think is that railfan 'wisdom' should be confused with fact, especially when 'posterity' a century hence starts confusing the tales with the actual events ... or the practicality of the thing being done.
 
 
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Posted by timz on Wednesday, December 9, 2015 12:29 PM

Dr D
it doesn't make these facts any less historically significant!

If they were facts they'd be significant, all right. Everyone agrees PRR 7002's run thru Lima at 125 mph would be significant, if it happened.

Dr D
they are still facts of American History and were satisfactory to the American scientists and historians of that time.

I'm guessing most of them weren't that gullible. Which 1905 scientist/historian have you found that believed them?

Dr D
all such statistics can ever be about is the full faith in the best technique of the time.

That's the problem-- they didn't use the best technique of the time.

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Posted by Dr D on Wednesday, December 9, 2015 12:26 AM

Ok let me get my head around this -

Great, it doesn't make these facts any less historically significant!  

Maybe not as scientific but they are still facts of American History and were satisfactory to the American scientists and historians of that time.  The Pennsylvaina Railroad recorded this as part of its history - so did the New York Central Railroad - to the point of preserving these locomotives.  So these facts are also recorded in books, and legend and by TRAINS MAGAZINE - and who can possess such 20/20 hindsight - to really, really, really know what happened.  Yes their technique was antiquated but it still stands as history today.

- so whatever scientific method there is today will still be questioned by some minder binder in November 30th 2134 - and the British record won't look any more impressively accurate then than the Pennsylvania Railroad's 127 mph record does now?

- all such statistics can ever be about is the full faith in the best technique of the time.

George Washington recieved the best medical care of the time on December, 14, 1799 - today it looks like he was in the hands of "witch doctors!"  - and the same goes for the travesty of antique medical care recieved by England's King Henry the 8th on January 28th, 1547.

Doc

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, December 7, 2015 7:48 AM

It has been pointed out in the pages of TRAINS, among other places, that the timing methods used to make these speed claims (primarily stopwatch or open telegraph key) had a substantial margin of error even by the standards of that period.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Dr D on Saturday, December 5, 2015 9:11 PM

Google for "Land speed record for rail vehicles" shows a number of speed records for types of power up to the Rocket Sleds in the 600 mph range.

Steam locomotives show a variety of claims for the speed record over the last 120 years - NYC 999 claimed 112.5 mph in the 1898 rail service to the Chicago Worlds Fair.  The Pennsylvaina Railroad claimed PRR 7002 achieved 127.1 in the running of the Broadway Limited in 1904.  Both locomotives have in some form or another come to the present day which is indicative of the status in which they were held by the American railroads of the period and the American public of the time.  

Grant you the scientific instruments for checking this in the year 1898 - 1904 were limited compared to the chronograph and laser beams of today.  Of course there is always a problem trying to go back and re-write history using today's un historical opinions.  You can refigure, recalculate - but only so much!  Too much re thinking and - poof it means nothing!

Other steam records were held for the Milwaukee Railroad 1935 claim for 113 mph by Atlantic type engine MW 2.  Milwaukee also claimed 104 mph in 1935 for a class F6 Hudson MW 6402.

It is an interesting web sight featuring the steam locomotive speed records for all countries around the world.

Doc

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, December 5, 2015 4:27 PM

I wonder how many miles this configuration of 614 could travel? It has the extended coal bunker, and with two canteens, tool car and a couple of rider coaches, could it perhaps go further than the 422 mile world record? It would be fascinating to find out!

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, December 5, 2015 12:30 PM

This video shows LNER 4472 pulling a substantial tank car behind the tender for portions of the Australian tour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmFw25PaI3U

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Posted by timz on Saturday, December 5, 2015 12:19 PM

Supposedly in 1876 PRR ran a special Jersey City to Pittsburgh nonstop-- 433 miles or some such thing.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 30, 2015 11:41 AM

I doubt picking water up "on the fly" was commonplace in 1989, much more so in Australia, where the record was set. However, any photos I've seen of her 1989 tour of Australia do not show an auxhilary tender.

 As for fuel, bunker extentions and modifications have been done to increase capacity, it has been done to many steamers, including C&O 614 and NKP 765.

Anybody from Europe here and know more?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, November 30, 2015 11:07 AM

I am wondering what the tender capacity was for it to be able to run non-stop for 422 miles?  Observation of English locomotives of the period, I doubt that their tender capacities would permit operation of that distance without replenishing the supplies of both fuel and water.  I know picking up water on the fly was commonplace, however picking up fuel on the fly????

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Flying Scotsman sets speed record on this day (11/30) in 1934
Posted by zardoz on Monday, November 30, 2015 9:34 AM

The locomotive is notable for having set two world records for steam traction; becoming
 the first steam locomotive to be officiallyauthenticated at reaching 100 miles per hour
(160.9 km/h) on 30 November 1934, and then setting record for the longest non-stop run by a steam locomotive when it ran 422 miles (679 km) on 8 August 1989.

Not too shabby.

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