Dr DI never heard of design flaws in the Belpaire firebox design used by the Pennsylvania Railroad. They used it on about every engine they built. Most writers felt the Pennsy kept with this difficult to manufacture firebox design because it was BETTER than the "wagon top" firebox design used by everyone else.
There's nothing particularly 'difficult to manufacture' about the Belpaire other than understanding how to do boiler sheet layout (which I admit is something of a lost art, but could be learned as a skill from existing resources). It's 'better' because it uses common-length staybolts for a larger part of its structure than a typical radial-stay firebox, and most of those staybolts have their orientation and threading 'normal' to the plane of both the wrapper and crown.
Rather than rehash the technical discussion that went on at the time the problem with 1361 was recognized, here is the RyPN thread that covered it:
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23495
Apparently the ARRM received at least one "typical" post demanding immediate information about what was going to happen now that the boiler is visibly in the shop. Their response (via their Facebook page according to RyPN):
"When there is anything to report, there will be a press release issued by our Board of Directors. Until then, you are welcome at any time to pay admission and visit the roundhouse when it is convenient for you. The roundhouse is open to our paying visitors during our operating hours. Thanks for your interest!"
I hope someone in the vicinity will periodically investigate what is being done, and report on progress. My understanding (again) is that the present effort is being conducted with intentional avoidance of publicity, with the idea of having it completed without further wrangling, confusion and delay. I confess to being surprised that Mike Tillger (who spearheaded the original restoration effort and probably knows as much about technical matters with 1361 as anyone) has recently indicated that he is not 'in the loop' with the present restoration activities.
The last time I did an internet search on the progress on K4 1361 there were extensive files on the funding spent by the State of Pennsylvania on this project along with extensive photos of the rebuilding.
The boiler was off the frame and the backhead of the firebox was cut off. The new backhead was being hammer formed and drilled. The wheels were out of the frame - basically a total diassembly.
Extensive files of the financial billing and funding were also available which showed the exasperaton of the Pennsylvania State legislature with the continual request for more millions of dollars for the project. Inadequate accounting for the money spent seems to have caused the State of Pennsylvania to abandon the project in place.
I never heard of design flaws in the Belpare firebox design used by the Pennsylvania Railroad. They used it on about every engine they built. Most writers felt the Pennsy kept with this difficult to manufacture firebox design because it was BETTER than the "wagon top" firebox design used by everyone else.
Strassburg Railroad does seem to be the technical and intellectual and economic powerhouse of steam railroad restoration. Scranton being a National Park I don't know what to think of their potential capacity for technical work. When I was in Colorado there was much enthusiasm for rebuilding and operating steam. From Silverton to Cumbries to Golden "can do" was the word - like England who also seem little challenged by many similar steam engine projects. Pennsylvania, however, seems empoverished in thought and financial strength - from East Broad Top, to The National Park, to the State Railroad Museum.
What about New York Central 3001 and now the crashed NYC switcher that got wrecked in Utica, NY. Are none of the fabulous eastern railroad engines from Pennsy and Central ever going to get attention. This sure doesn't seem a problem on the Western Maryland, and in Roanoake, VA.
WHAT GIVES PENNSYLVANIA?
Doc
Firelock76What I fail to understand is just how this locomotive got FUBARed into the situation it's in now. For crying out loud it was running in 1989!
The situation is that PRR 'optimized' the firebox staybolt arrangements in the 1940s, in a way that compromised the margin of safety.
Apparently, at the as-designed wrapper-sheet staybolt spacing, the only way the plate thickness AS BUILT would be adequate to give the required factor of safety would be if the crown staybolts were double-nutted. They stopped being double-nutted sometime in the 1940s. There has been some erosion of the wrapper plate since then, further reducing the margin of safety.
This is not a too-sharp backhead angle or hip-forming problem. Apparently a great many staybolt holes both in the wrapper and crown would have to be "relocated" to make the boiler safe to fire to required pressure (a comparatively mild-looking 205 psi). I don't know if there was any discussion about running her at a lower nominal pressure (the way the Green Arrow 2-6-2 was run in Britain for a while) but to do it right the locomotive needed a whole new wrapper section and probably a new crown and perhaps firebox sheets, both to get a proper material spec and replace wasted material.
The people working on the locomotive are keeping VERY private about progress, as there's been so much heat without light concerning this engine over tha last few years. My understanding is that they have a better shot at completing their work by the end of the year than UP does with 844. (And I expect to see 844 in steam, or at least tests, by Christmas time).
If it helps any -- there would be utterly no point in re-engineering or working around the sheet and staybolt issues if the locomotive were only being done for cosmetic completion. So if this is just a reassembly to preserve the thing in one piece for display, they are a considerable way along in getting it done...
Oh, and 1223 and 7002 at the Railroad museum of Pennsylvania? I got it straight from a docent, both locomotives had severe firebox erosion and had to be returned from the Strasburg Railroad who had been running them, and taking very good care of them, by the way.
They got a then-fancy ultrasonic detector and just HAD to use it. Not for nothing did Kelly Anderson call the thing 'the death ray'!
BTW, the same situation with plate thickness vs. staybolt spacing apparently affects both of the G5s 4-6-0s....
What I fail to understand is just how this locomotive got FUBARed into the situation it's in now. For crying out loud it was running in 1989!
Oh, and 1223 and 7002 at the Railroad museum of Pennsylvania? I got it straight from a docent, both locomotives had severe firebox erosion and had to be returned from the Strasburg Railroad who had been running them, and taking very good care of them, by the way. As the SRR didn't own the locomotives but was leasing them they elected not to rebuild the fireboxes. No hard feelings from the museum, at least according to the docent I spoke to.
When I saw 1223 and 7002 several years ago they were in (at least to my untrained eyes) beautiful shape. If the fireboxes are all that's wrong with them they could probably be brought back with little trouble. But what do I know?
There could be quite a few others issues involved with the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania not running steam, or anything else for that matter. Insurance for instance, or exceeding their charter.
There may be some confusion here regarding the identity and ownership of the engine in question. Two K4s locos were saved. Number 1361 was put on display at Horseshoe Curve for several years and is now owned by the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. That is the locomotive being discussed, and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania does not own her.
Number 3750 was set aside for preservation and had her identity swapped with the first K4s, number 1737. The incorrect identification was corrected, and number 3750 is now part of the collection of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg. Because of past problems encountered with engines 1223 and 7002, the Museum has a policy whereby they do not intend to operate their steam locomotives. So it is unlikely that 3750 will ever operate under steam.
Number 1361 could theoretically be restored to operation. This would require a lot of money and a first rate staff, knowledgeable in the operation of steam. I do not know for certain whether the Railroaders Memorial Museum has that kind of money or that kind of staff. I would love to see this engine operate again, but if there is any question at all, I would rather see her reassembled and presented as a fine static exhibit of her class.
Putting this 97 year old iconic locomotive in any kind of further jeopardy would be a sin.
Tom
After all the funds spent to restore this fabulous engine K-4 1361 - this restoration should be finished! The new boiler backhead that was fabricated and the disassembled boiler should be completed and then hydro tested. At least then there would be a starting point for further inevitable work.
THE WORLD NEEDS A PENNSY K-4 IN RUNNING CONDITION! DOES ANYONE DOUBT THIS? DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN?
So many truly inconsequential engines have been restored - doesn't anyone see the need of NYC 3001 or PENNSY 1361. Is everyone in the northeast USA asleep? Is rail preservation so anemic that it cannot fund this needed historic event? Why waste all the taxpayer money that has been spent?
A cosmetic restoration while essential to preserve this historic locomotive from the scrappers is necessary - well come on - if we are going to recreate a Pennsy T-1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 why not start on something eminently more practical. This K-4 only pulled the Admiral, the Broadway Limited, the Cinicinnati Limited, the Colonial, the Federal Express, the Jeffersonian, the Keystone, the Manhattan Limited, the NOrthern Arrow, the Pittsburgher, the South Wind, the Spirit of St. Louis, the Steeler, the Trail Blazer and the Red Arrow for more than 30 years!
If nothing else the state historical museum should give the K-4 to the Strassburg Railroad to finish - they have done such wonderful work on a host of Pennsylvaina Railroad inconsequential engines - why not turn their talents loose on a true HISTORIC TITAN! It's what the State of Pennsylvania should have done in the first place!
JUST HOW FAMOUS DOES A TRAIN ENGINE HAVE TO BE TO GET SAVED?
An item in Railway Preservation News indicates the 1361's boiler has been moved from storage in Orbisonia Pennsylvania to the Altoona Railroaders' Museum. A friend in Pennsylvania confirms this. This should be good news because it should indicate that the engine is that much closer to reassembly. Can anybody tell us the whereabouts of the rest of the parts (running gear, tender, cab & other components)? Does anybody know when all these parts can be reassembled?
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