Any possibilities of a C,B&Q 4-8-4 Returning to steam.

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Any possibilities of a C,B&Q 4-8-4 Returning to steam.
Posted by JOSEPH the steam buff on Tuesday, June 2, 2015 1:24 PM

So this has been on my mind for a while.  We know the during the 50,s that the c,b&q ran special steam excursions on their lines with 4-8-4 5632 2-8-2 4960 and 4963.   We also know the extremely sad fate that happens to 5632.    The 4-8-4,s the c,b&q had were absolutely stunning.   5632 was and is very big favorite.  Even though I wasen,t born till 1993.   So my question is this?  I know off the top of my head that 4 sister locomotive survived.   Her twin 5629 is one of them.   What are the possibility of one of her sisters returning to steam?  Which ones are in good shape to return?   And who would be wanting to do it?   I would love to see 5632 twin 5629 return. But I really want to see one just return.  In a sense I wanna see a wrong fixed.  That and see one of those beautiful engines run again.   Is it possible.  I say yes.    Who knows.

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Posted by challenger3980 on Wednesday, June 3, 2015 9:34 PM

I don't know of anyone that has considered restoring a CB&Q 4-8-4, but I have learned that with Steam Locomotive restoration, NEVER, Say Never.

 Steve Lee wasjust about the most Knowledgeable person when it can t UP Steam restoration, and even Steve said, that a Big Boy would NEVER be restored to service, and He cited several Good reasons for that. Well, the 4014 isn't back in Steam YET, but a whole lot of "Good Faith" work has been done, and UP seems very sincere in their effort to bring the 4014 back to life, so anything is POSSIBLE, but don't go holding your breath waiting for one just yet.

 I would Love to see a CB&Q 4-8-4 steam again as well, but I haven't even heard of any proposals yet, never mind and dirty work getting done, but one CAN Hope, what can I say, I play the LotteryEmbarrassed.

Doug

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, June 4, 2015 10:40 AM

With the right supply of desire, skills and $$$$$$$$$$, anything is possible.

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, June 4, 2015 12:21 PM

Having ridden behind 5632 once and watched it run by 2-3 more times including in gold paint, I would love to see any of the existing O-5a class (#s 5614, 5629, 5631, and 5633) restored to operation.   But it seems unlikely.

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Posted by stdgauge on Friday, June 5, 2015 11:22 AM

Well, the problem that I see is there are a LOT of restorations going on right now, and many locomotives currently running.  But this requires money AND a place to run.  With so many locomotives already running, why add another?  Basically, another restoration is going to compete with other groups' locomotives for dollars and a place to run. 

 

Personally, like almost everyone, I have a limit to the amount of dollars that I donate to steam restoration/operation groups.  I'd love to see a CB&Q run, but I can't put any money up for it.  I will, however, continue to put dollars into the FWRHS, as they have an incredible track record. 

While I'm at it, I encourage everyone to donate some TIME to your favorite group, as well as some dollars.  I'd especially encourage you to donate money if you are going to be chasing/photographing and not riding.  After all, steam locomotives don't burn coal or oil, they burn money!

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Posted by ROBERT WILLISON on Saturday, June 6, 2015 10:14 AM

Great point str gauge, often to many chaser and not enough donaters.

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Posted by Buslist on Saturday, June 6, 2015 11:10 AM

stdgauge

Well, the problem that I see is there are a LOT of restorations going on right now, and many locomotives currently running.  But this requires money AND a place to run.  With so many locomotives already running, why add another?  Basically, another restoration is going to compete with other groups' locomotives for dollars and a place to run. 

 

Personally, like almost everyone, I have a limit to the amount of dollars that I donate to steam restoration/operation groups.  I'd love to see a CB&Q run, but I can't put any money up for it.  I will, however, continue to put dollars into the FWRHS, as they have an incredible track record. 

So let's create a T1 recreation fantasy to suck up some of those limited $. But they say it isn't so!

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Posted by stdgauge on Tuesday, June 9, 2015 6:49 AM

ROBERT WILLISON

Great point str gauge, often to many chaser and not enough donaters.

 
Also, not enough people willing to volunteer some labor.  Not only do I strongly encourage chasers to donate some dollars, I also encourage people to donate some or their time.  Even if you are not a welder, machinist, or a boilermaker, there is ALWAYS something for ANYONE to do. 
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Posted by ROBERT WILLISON on Tuesday, June 9, 2015 6:27 PM

Donations take many forms, cash, sweat, office skills fund raising, grant writing, the list is end less. They are generally the first to complain about and individual, group or corporation not doing enough.

 

What bothers me are the free loading chasers.

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, June 9, 2015 6:42 PM

5629 will continue to sit where it's been for years. - Golden, CO

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by JOSEPH the steam buff on Monday, June 15, 2015 5:35 PM

So out of the 4 surviving. Which is the best candidate for even someone bringing one back to steam?

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:49 AM

mudchicken

5629 will continue to sit where it's been for years. - Golden, CO

 

No doubt.  I've been to the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden and for the life of me I don't recall seeing any standard gauge trackage leading into or out of the premises.  I could be VERY wrong, but it would seem to me 5629 is effectively marooned at the museum.   Could be worse, sure beats a scrapyard.

And if any of you ever get out to that area DON'T miss that museum!  Fabulous place!

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, June 20, 2015 10:52 AM

Firelock76
mudchicken

5629 will continue to sit where it's been for years. - Golden, CO

No doubt.  I've been to the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden and for the life of me I don't recall seeing any standard gauge trackage leading into or out of the premises.  I could be VERY wrong, but it would seem to me 5629 is effectively marooned at the museum.   Could be worse, sure beats a scrapyard.

And if any of you ever get out to that area DON'T miss that museum!  Fabulous place!

There wasn't any direct rail connection to the UP 4014, when it got moved either.

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, June 20, 2015 11:12 AM

BaltACD

 

 
Firelock76
mudchicken

5629 will continue to sit where it's been for years. - Golden, CO

No doubt.  I've been to the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden and for the life of me I don't recall seeing any standard gauge trackage leading into or out of the premises.  I could be VERY wrong, but it would seem to me 5629 is effectively marooned at the museum.   Could be worse, sure beats a scrapyard.

And if any of you ever get out to that area DON'T miss that museum!  Fabulous place!

 

There wasn't any direct rail connection to the UP 4014, when it got moved either.

 

There is a rail line the other side of 44th Ave. about 200 feet south.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, June 20, 2015 4:26 PM

A rail line 200 feet away?  Well that's good, it means there's some hope, no matter how slim.  I was hoping I was wrong on this one.

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Posted by thomas81z on Saturday, June 20, 2015 5:19 PM

ADD segway , do they make a Q 4-8-4 IN HO SCALE

plastic??? I know they do in brass but those are 

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Posted by ACY Tom on Saturday, June 20, 2015 7:50 PM

Thomas:

Nope.  Brass only, and out of production for many years (possibly several decades).  Save your pennies.  Maybe start a write-in campaign with the manufacturers.  Don't hold your breath.  Check RDG Casey's rebuilds on the MR forum for ideas on a do-it-yourself O-5a.Smile

Tom

(edited)

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, June 20, 2015 10:57 PM

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Posted by ACY Tom on Monday, June 22, 2015 10:56 AM

I don't know about the viability of any of these CB&Q 4-8-4's as an operating engine.  If the desire is to run a big, fast CB&Q steam loco, it might be worthwile to take a look at the half-dozen or so existing 4-6-4's.  On the Steam Locomotive site, the listing for no. 3007, at the Illinois Railway Museum, suggests that she is a candidate for restoration.  Photos from last year suggest that she is in pretty good shape, but of course photos don't necessarily tell the whole story.

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Posted by LUKE SOLBERG on Monday, June 22, 2015 1:05 PM

While I agree I  would love to see a big CB&Q 4-8-4 or even 4-6-4 running, my vote gose towards geting a CB&Q mikado running. The one I am think about is 4963 on display at Mendota IL. She looks like she is in decent condition but looks can be deciving i understand. It would be interex=sting to see a 4-6-4 pounding the high iron thought.

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Posted by Dr D on Monday, June 29, 2015 11:47 PM

Mudchicken - sorry to have missed you at the Colorado Rail Museum - the library you volunteer at is quite facility - it must be great to have time to delve into its many treasures - wish I was there to do the adventure with ya.

Visiting Golden, Colorado this last week I had a chance to look over CB&Q 5629.  I had seen CB&Q 5632 in Chicago when Dick Jensen had purchased it from the Burlington RR.  5632 of course was in almost operational condition the overhaul having been stopped and the engine sold.  

These were massive western 4-8-4 northerns on the order of size of Santa Fe.  Big and powerful.  The CB&Q gave 5629 to the Colorado Museum in 1963 after it stopped running it in 1957 it had been used as a stationary boiler in Nebraska.

Visually, the engine is complete and shows little damage except for the fireman side windows being broken - come on why let animals and elements into a locomotive in a museum setting when some glass and a little work could repair this?  Another observation about 5629 is that the boiler jacket has rusted out on each course under the belly of the boiler allowing the asbestos jacketing to be washed out or pulled out by animals.  This has got to be an enviornmental no no - and for an engine on museum display!  

The engine seems entirely intact with closed all weather cab - oil fire conversion from coal - and is built with alligator crossheads - brass bushed main rods - Baker valve gear - Boxpolk drivers 73 inches dia - solid cast steel frame with cylinders and appliance mounts and brake mounts cast integral to the frame - wow! - massive blunt one piece pilot with coupler that elevates upwards out of the way - Nathan lubricator - Worthington feed water and a cross compound air compressor on each side.  

The big steamer CB&Q 5629 has a silver boiler front - with Pyle headlight and that marvelous western railroad novelty of the 1940's and 50's - the MARS LIGHT - a twin beam headlight above the standard one with a red orbiting light and a white orbiting light.  Looks so cool coming down the track at a distance - kind of "erie" - like it better than the Federal "ditch lights."  Yes the original whistle and bell are there!  Didn't see builders plates.  This engine is huge - got to be a couple of feet taller than similar eastern US steam engines

When CB&Q 5629 was given to the Colorado Museum the CB&Q RR brought the engine along with a 100 foot portable girder bridge which they set up temporarily to ease the engine into the museum facility - then they removed their temp bridge and track which effectively land locked 5629.

Colorado Rail Museum is in the process of restoring DRG&W 491 the narrow gauge mike.  A visit into the museum roundhouse - I told the guys Mudchicken was a friend of mine they gave me the cooks tour of D&RGW 491.  The boiler pressure shell has been ultrasounded and passed - the loco is in great shape - they were replacing the lagging now.  Machining new parts for the spring rigging of the tender - They built a brand new tender "dog house" of white oak no less! - the engine should run again joining several other on the loop of track around the museum.

These guys at Colorado Rail Museum are more than capable of restoring the mighty CB&Q 5629 on the spot and they know their business.  Big issue is what would you do with it without some big time Class 1 help to get her where she could run.  Like a wealthy benefactor giving a permanant spur line into the museum.  

Denver has a grand historic rail station DENVER UNION STATION just miles away - let me dream of CB&Q 5629 doing excursions on the main line to MOFFAT TUNNEL and Salt Lake City or down to Pueblo or up the ROYAL GORGE to Salida - or better yet racing east across the great plains that she was built to run - eating up the miles of the vast west - cause thats what she was born to do.

Doc

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Posted by bobyar2001 on Saturday, July 4, 2015 10:41 AM

At present, the dream for No. 5629 should be to just get it under cover.  Steam locomotives without shelter are dying a slow death from corrosion.  While wet asbestos is eating away at the boiler and cylinder jackets, they are replaceable.  That wet asbestos is also eating away at the boiler shell, to the point that some engines are no longer practical to return to operation.  It's really a crime that picture-snapping railfans and model railroaders have done so little to save our remaining steam locomotives.  Cosmetic restoration, using mostly volunteer labor, is not terribly expensive and well within the fundraising capabilities of most volunteer groups.  The work requires some basic knowledge of how to not damage the engine (don't roll it without journal preparation, etc.) but is otherwise just hard and dirty. It does not require more than basic shop skills.  But on most display locomotives, what little work has been done was by the Jaycees, Boy Scouts, etc..  The train nuts have been conspicuosly absent, including on the 4-6-0 I'm restoring.  Of the 15 or so persons who have helped me, none were railfans.

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Posted by chutes5632 on Monday, July 6, 2015 6:01 PM

I rode behind 5632  had a great cab ride with her and chased her any times and ended up with some great photo's of her. It is a rotten shame what happened to this great engine. I would love to see a 5600 engine running again. or even a Q hudson. I think there are a lot of Q fans out there that would love that process  Chuck

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Posted by JOSEPH the steam buff on Monday, July 6, 2015 9:51 PM

I ddn,t know you were restoring a 4-6-0!!!!!!   You got me interested now.  What's here history?

 

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Posted by becksboys on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 5:58 PM

It seems by the responses here that there is some  interest in seeing a C,B & Q  4-8-4 rebuilt and running again. This would be a huge and complex project. I myself wouldn't even know where to begin a project like this.Would it be worth contacting a society that has already rebuilt an engine like this to see if they would have the  inclination for a rebuild project?

John Becker

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Posted by Dr D on Tuesday, July 7, 2015 8:54 PM

John,

The question you ask is to the fates!  The fate of each remaining locomotive!  

The reason we all discuss locomotive restoration on the trains magazine forum is to generate common interest in steam locomotives.  The business of restoring a steam locomotive is not for the faint of heart.  Many locomotive restorations have been attempted and have failed and the results for the locomotive can be worse that if it were never attempted.  

For example the State of Pennsylvania contracted Railroaders Memorial Museum to have one of the two remaining Pennsy K4 Pacific 4-6-2 locomotives restored.  After spending millions of dollars the state pulled the plug on the project and Pennsy K4 1361 remains scattered in a thousands pieces in the corner of Steamtown roundhouse.  Can't say I have seen much discussion of this lately and it is a shame because K4 1361 is one of the greatest passenger engines of American railroad history.  Isn't anyone clamoring to see it saved?

A worse fate awaited the steam locomotive star of the Burlington Railroad CB&Q 5632.  The Burlington Railroad itself had almost finished the effort to restore the big northern when a change in railroad managment pulled the financial plug on the project.  As fate would have it, CB&Q 5632 went out of the Burlington's hands into the ownership of a Chicago railfan named Richard Jensen.  Richard already owned and was operating a Grand Trunk Western 5629 a 4-6-2 which was being used in passenger excursion service in Chicago and Detroit.  

Richard was relying on some cooperation of other railroads like Baltimore And Ohio and Chicago and Western Indiana for the use of their facilities such as the Chicago 47th street roundhouse for locomotive storage.  This was a tricky game Richard was playing with company officials and executives of corporations because the sentiments of managment and the power plays within corporate structures turned out to be very mecurical.

The steam locomotive CB&Q 5632 was taken from Jensen by the railroad in a confusing series of events which resulted in 5632 being derailed in movement and the big northern was suddenly cut up for scrap.  Burlington 4960 along with several car loads of spare parts were saved.  In a later court battle Jensen recovered monitary compensation of $1,700,000 for the loss, but how could he recover his wits and the good will of the railroads he was unable to successfully negoitate with.  

Richard Jensen also owned GTW pacific 5629 which survived the above fiasco by being stranded in Detroit.  Fate did not favor GTW 5629 which came to Chicago and also became embroiled in a railroad turf war with METRA the commutor rail system serving Chicago.  A similar legal disagreement to that of C&WI resulted in GTW 5629 also being cut up for scrap.  Chicago railfans and news media watched in disbelief as all attempts to stop this failed.  

These experiences and others left Richard Jensen with what would appear to be "post traumatic stress" and he died at the fairly young age 60.  I am sure his traumatic steam locomotive restoration experiences contributed in some ways - I would say he died of a broken heart?

As a young man I met Richard riding behind his beloved GTW 5629, as he always rode the excursions which operated his locomotives and he loved to talk to the railfans - he relished everyones enthusiasm.  Later when I was a member of Project 1225 the group that was restoring locomotive Pere Marquette 1225 I had a chance to work and talk to Richard in depth.  Project 1225 members would often go off to maintain locomotives on display and we were in Durand MI to help keep up GTW 5632.

Richard Jensen had come to Durand looking for spare parts and had gotten permission from the city to borrow the journal boxes and journal brasses out of the rear truck of display engine GTW 5632.  Richard was in the process of disassembly of these parts - which he promised to return to the city - those worn ones from GTW 5629.

This wasn't so far fetched as Grand Trunk Railroad had run steam excursions from Detroit to Durand and the city was a passenger hub and rail facility for all GTW trains from Detroit to Chicago and Montreal to Chicago.  For years the city fathers had hosted an October "Ox Roast" and Steam Train Festival, and they felt it was of municipal interest to help to keep the steam trains returning.  

As the fates would have it!  To this day GTW 5632 on display in Durand, MI has no rear truck bearings - just a couple of blocks of wood Jensen left holding up the engine truck above an empty wheel set.

As a point of clarification, Jensen owned the long gone "northern" CB&Q 5632, while "pacific" GTW 5632 remains on display in Durand.

Doc

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Posted by JOSEPH the steam buff on Wednesday, July 8, 2015 12:26 AM

To answer your question john.   Yes.  It is worth it.   I have stated this before.   I may be 22.   But the 5632 was my favorite nothern of all time.   Sure I have allot of 4-8-4's as favorites. But she is no.1.   I think the reason I want a c,b & Q 4-8-4 return. Is cause not only are they beautiful.   But we lost not just one but two beautiful engines too soon.   And with events that could have been prevented.    I personally wanna see a wrong rewritten.   5629 is 5632's twin.   And I just wanted to see if there is a possibility for her or one of the four surviving sisters to return.    As docter mentioned.   There is potential.  I just didn't know that she was in bad shape.    Plus why wouldn't you want to see one of those thouro breeds run again?.     As for 1361.  I personally asked them via Facebook.   To my shock they replied.   The museum has 1361 back.   And now that they have a roundhouse up.   They are going to return her to steam.  I believe to full operating boiler pressure.   Now I did,n,t ask what happened to all the money in Steamtown.   But to me if you had several million given to ensure for it to get done and had it there for several years.   What the hell happened?  And why did it look like nothing was done?   I mean what did they do.   What was the repairs that drained the money so quickly?    Plus if you had only a couple of repairs you should have a quit a bit left.   Hell even enough for the 15 years and then some.   I still wonder what epic disaster happens to cause so little work done.?

 

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Posted by Buslist on Wednesday, July 8, 2015 8:09 AM

And although they will deny it every $ that goes to the silly T1 project is money that doesen't go to getting a Q 4-8-4 or better yet a 4-6-4 operational. That's why I think the T1 project is bad for the steam restoration effort.

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Posted by Wizlish on Wednesday, July 8, 2015 10:18 AM

Buslist

And although they will deny it every $ that goes to the silly T1 project is money that doesen't go to getting a Q 4-8-4 or better yet a 4-6-4 operational. That's why I think the T1 project is bad for the steam restoration effort.

How about you get an 0-5 or S-4 project set up, organized, financed and supported, at least to the level of participation that the T1 Trust has achieved?

Then, perhaps, you will have some standing to comment on practical use of available steam restoration dollars for that purpose.

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Posted by Dr D on Wednesday, July 8, 2015 11:37 AM

Pennsy T1 was no joke!  

Because it was probably the flowering of the American steam locomotive design; and the Pennsylvania RR burst upon an age of genius in the development of this concept of steam power for the modern age.

After years of running hundreds of dowdy old hand fired "pacifics" and "mikes" the Pennsylvania Railroad came of age with four truely remarkable steam engine designs.

To back up this unique locomotive production the railroad included a massive corporate budget, extensive shop complex at Juniata, Pennsylvania - a facility which included locomotive dyanomometer in which the largest most powerful steam engines could be run at full power indoors in a stationary setting to test for efficiency and horsepower.  The Pennsylvania RR in this fashion was able to fine tune their steam engine design.  NO OTHER railroad in history ever had this kind of technology at its fingertips.

The results of these efforts in the 1930's was the design of the 6-4-4-6, the 4-4-4-4 passenger engines, the 6-8-6 direct drive steam turbine, and the 4-4-6-4 freight locomotive.  All these were remarkable and the result of iconoclastic engineering thought. 

The question remains, Why on earth would a company that went to this degree of effort have scrapped everyone of these marvelous engine designs and saved instead a number of ordinary steam locomotives that every other railroad was using?  

Don't get me wrong I am glad to have the Pennsylvania steam collection of 4-6-2's and the 4-8-2's - but they lack all the GLORY that Pennsylvaina Railroad came to.  What are they compared to the mighty 4-4-6-4.  A rigid chasis freight engine that produced more than 8000 horsepower!  More than any other steam locomotive ever built!  More than UP 4014, more NW 1218, more than C&O 2-6-6-6 - more than any steam locomotive!

So why should we build a reproduction T1 today?  For the glory or for the fun?  Or because there is nothing more romantic than a "lost cause!" - Its why the Southern United States keep the Confederate flag - the stars and bars of the Confederacy!  It's why American movie goers keep prefering the movie "Gone With The Wind"!  What is life without the romance.  Imagine it - a new T1 towering in its strength ready to run again.

Yes, the Pennsylvania Railroad should have saved at least one 4-4-4-4 passenger T1 - because it was such a beautiful locomotive and because it was so very fast!  And because it topped any steam locomotive ever built!  Think of it as a super NW 611 - built to go faster than anyone ever dreamed!  

The British don't hold the land speed record of 125.88 mph with the "Mallard" locomotive - The Pennsylvainia Railroad does! - it just never claimed the prize!

The Pennsylvania Railroad T1 - 4-4-4-4 had a boiler pressure of 300PSI - two sets of cylinders 19 3/4"x 26" inches - Boxpolk driving wheels 80 inches in diameter arranged in two engine sets and driven by light weight roller bearing rods.  These engines also had steam distribution in the form of Franklin poppet valve gear! - They had 65,000 lbs of tractive effort - a 4.1 factor of adhesion - a boiler diameter of 100 inches - a boiler tube length of a mere 18 feet! - a firebox combustion chamber of a massive 84 inches! - a firebox size of 138" x 96" inches - a grate area of 92 square feet! - an evaporative heating surface of 5,661 sq feet - a super heat surface of 2,085 sq feet - the engine driver wheelbase was 26 and half feet - the total engine wheelbase was 64 and half feet - the total engine and tender wheelbase was 123 and half feet - the weight on drive wheels was 281,400 lbs and engine weight was 608,000 lbs - the tender capacity was 24,000 gallons - and tender weight was 452,000 lbs.

No formal record was ever made public of how fast the 4-4-4-4 T1's ran!

Further, these engines had that beautiful 1930's Art Deco streamline styling! - they were built upon a steel foundation in the form of a "one piece cast steel frame" that included two sets of cylinder castings.  The engines ran on all roller bearing drive and as I said the drive wheel sets were arranged into two complete engines on one rigid frame which meant that cylinder rodding loads were extremely light in weight.  The steam distribution was the Franklin "poppet valve design" - which is the type of valving used in automotive engines today.

The Pennsylvania Railroad built 52 of these 4-4-4-4 engines two were constructed by Baldwin and the other 50 by the Juiniata, PA shops - all 52 locomotives went into service in the United States before and during the Second World War which ment they were required to run hard and long in war time emergency.

The T1 4-4-4-4 locomotive was designed to operate at 100 mph on a daily basis and some were reported to have operated at speeds up to 140 miles per hour in "making up time" with heavy war time train schedules.

Unfortunately the T1's didn't last long enough for all of the develpment work to be completed on their design because the diesel engine technology forced their retirement.  One of the major mechanical issues that was never satifactorily worked out was traction control at extreme speed - which often resulted in one engine set "slipping its wheels" while the other engine set held traction - this often resulted in mechanical damage to the "slipping" engine.

WHY REPRODUCE AT T1? - Because many people feel it was the engine design that could have come after CB&Q 5600, NYC "Niagaras", N&W 600's, UP 800's, AT&SF "northern's", SP "northerns" and others.

Now why would'nt the Pennsylvania have saved one for us today?

Doc

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