nsecbuengineer Let's put this issue to bed right now. NS system timetable effective January 1, 2015 states:"All steam locomotives........40 mph". This restriction has been in the timetable for years. It was in place when the 611 and the 1218 were in excursion service in the 80s and 90s.
Let's put this issue to bed right now. NS system timetable effective January 1, 2015 states:"All steam locomotives........40 mph". This restriction has been in the timetable for years. It was in place when the 611 and the 1218 were in excursion service in the 80s and 90s.
And, 40 mph has been the rule since that first, test run. It really did operate at 50 mph for a good bit.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
And like any other TTIS or Rule, it can be changed by Superintendent's Bulletin or Train Message (formerly called Train Order).
If the powers that be want a higher speed authorized, the tools exist to properly implement that higher speed; the tools can also be used to be more restrictive if that is desired.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The curve in question was on the CWI at 130th Street where it ducks under the South Shore. The "Lake Cities" was the last passenger train in question.
CSSHEGEWISCH I personally know of at least one situation where the superelevation of a curve was reduced after the last passenger train was discontinued. It probably helped that there were at least two derailments involving daisy-chaining of piggyback flats at that location.
I personally know of at least one situation where the superelevation of a curve was reduced after the last passenger train was discontinued. It probably helped that there were at least two derailments involving daisy-chaining of piggyback flats at that location.
After we left Louisville, I was talking with flagman, and he told me that the superelevation was long gone; I do not remember if he said it was the L&N that lowered the rails or if it had, indeed, been done after the last Chicago-Louisville passenger train had run.
Johnny
Firelock76The 40mph speed limit is there I'm sure for safety and probably insurance reasons.
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The 40mph speed limit is there I'm sure for safety and probably insurance reasons.
However, I'm reminded of an article I read back around 1990 or so about the Blue Mountain and Reading and their steam runs with #425. Andy Muller, the president of the 'road said that 425 was capable of going much, much faster, but the passengers wanted the ride to last, so they didn't run over 45 mph. I'm sure the present day riders of the NS steam excursion program want their rides to last as well.
After it's '80s rebuild 425 was supposed to have been capable (theoretically) of 80 mph.
JACOB LONGANECKER I find it somewhat hipocritical of NS to allow one steam engine to break their own rules of "40 Mph Max, no exceptions" and not others. I'm sure everyone would like to see the whole group of steamers NS allows on their tracks to go faster than they are allowed to go now. Maybe letting it go above 40 Mph will only be allowed this year. Either way, picking favorites tends to lead to animosity.
I find it somewhat hipocritical of NS to allow one steam engine to break their own rules of "40 Mph Max, no exceptions" and not others. I'm sure everyone would like to see the whole group of steamers NS allows on their tracks to go faster than they are allowed to go now. Maybe letting it go above 40 Mph will only be allowed this year. Either way, picking favorites tends to lead to animosity.
Pretty sure they're not "picking favorites". 40 mph is it for public excursions. My guess is they allowed a bit more on the shake-down run as a bit of a "stress test". NS has done a pretty good job of "spreading the wealth" between 4501, 611 and 765.
Also remember these are all part of the "21st Century Steam" program which is tailored to give employees around the system a chance to ride. Once the system is covered, who knows what's next?
I can already hear the mudchicken crying, "My track, My track".
Hmmm, a drag race between 611 and 844, presumeably on paralell tracks.
Wouldn't be a smart thing to do. But it WOULD be cool!
We were on the train Sat. 6-13, hard to tell how fast we were going, but did a short chase on Sun after filming her near Appomattox and she was moving, looks like 100 mph on video, but know it is not. Big thrill was to meet Bob Saxten and get a pic taken with him and later meeting Cheri George and getting a pic with her. She's a small lady, not what I'd expect a woman fireman to look like, but she gets the job done. She fired for part of the trips that weekend.
Thanks and much appreciated.
WizlishIf I remember correctly, the locomotive was service-balanced for 'acceptable' augment up to 520 rpm and designed for 540 rpm (this not representing a speed the locomotive would actually reach, but the point at which peak vertical augment would just equal downward 'preload' of weight on drivers; above that speed you could expect to see 'bounce'...) If that is wrong, someone (like BigJim) insert the correct information.
And just as importantly:The Most Advanced 4-8-4?W.L. WithuhnRailfan & Railroad MagazineMarch, 1983
Hope this helps.
I'll be riding with #611 on Sat and look forward to it, no matter how fast or slow we'll be going. She looks fast on the videos I've seen, those drivers are pumping up and down and rolling. Wish I could have seen steamers back in the day when they would have opened them up on the big name trains like Chiefs
Looks like Saturday's trip ran at 40 mph. Fastest speed by any OS was 37 mph.
BaltACD Can't speak to NS practice. On my carrier the only sub-divisions that have Passenger train Speed, have scheduled passenger trains. All other sub-divisions only have freight train speeds and intermodal speeds.
Can't speak to NS practice. On my carrier the only sub-divisions that have Passenger train Speed, have scheduled passenger trains. All other sub-divisions only have freight train speeds and intermodal speeds.
Same on NS. It was that way on Conrail, too.
We were on one of the excursions in the 1980's between Norfolk and Petersburg prior to the 611 being slowed down and we were running around 85mph at one point coming back to Norfolk on the long straight and it was smooth as could be.
One issue NOT addressed so far:When 611 was first returned to service in the 1980s, the speed on 611 was set, according to multiple sources back then, as "track speed on tangents, 10 mph below rated/restricted speed on curves." This is because 611 has a highwer center of gravity, a foot or so higher than contemporary diesels of the '80s, and superelevation that had formerly been used on curves in steam days had been done away with in the interim. This restriction meant that 611 was decidedly not a difficult loco to chase on curvy track (such as the Front Royal line she;ll be on this weekend), but could run on straight track like the former MKP, where I once clocked her at over 60 mph on a parallel road between Erie and Conneaut in the mid-1980s.Has anyone heard any update on this?
Regarding speed, 611 post-overhaul may be regarded as a special case and not need to be restricted to what the rules were for steam operating in 1992. I doubt that we will see at 79mph, but running at normal freight-train speed for a specific section of track seems a very wise course indeed. Whether either or both of the other locomotives currently involved in NS's revived steam program get the same dispensation is another matter.
oltmannd Train Guy 3 Well I was not there for the mailine test run but if it did run up to 50MPH, who allowed it? 50MPH would be a 10MPH violation of NS rules. I've aquired various NS rulebooks from 1990 to 2012 I believe being my lastest. All those rule books specificly state "steam excursions" or "steam locomtoives" depending on the book are restrictive to 40 MPH. Who has the authority to just allow a rule to be broken? Probably just needed the authority of the Div Supt. or GM for the region . Wouldn't a bulletin order do the job? It's a good thing, generally, to allow excursions the same speed as freight trains. Slow trains are a drag on line capacity.
Train Guy 3 Well I was not there for the mailine test run but if it did run up to 50MPH, who allowed it? 50MPH would be a 10MPH violation of NS rules. I've aquired various NS rulebooks from 1990 to 2012 I believe being my lastest. All those rule books specificly state "steam excursions" or "steam locomtoives" depending on the book are restrictive to 40 MPH. Who has the authority to just allow a rule to be broken?
Well I was not there for the mailine test run but if it did run up to 50MPH, who allowed it? 50MPH would be a 10MPH violation of NS rules. I've aquired various NS rulebooks from 1990 to 2012 I believe being my lastest. All those rule books specificly state "steam excursions" or "steam locomtoives" depending on the book are restrictive to 40 MPH. Who has the authority to just allow a rule to be broken?
Probably just needed the authority of the Div Supt. or GM for the region . Wouldn't a bulletin order do the job?
It's a good thing, generally, to allow excursions the same speed as freight trains. Slow trains are a drag on line capacity.
TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3.
If I remember correctly:
"Maximum" speed is correlated with an AAR measurement, I think at 504 rpm (but I don't remember why that number was picked). That translates to just under 105 mph for a J locomotive with nominal driver diameter (no tire wear).
If I remember correctly, the locomotive was service-balanced for 'acceptable' augment up to 520 rpm and designed for 540 rpm (this not representing a speed the locomotive would actually reach, but the point at which peak vertical augment would just equal downward 'preload' of weight on drivers; above that speed you could expect to see 'bounce'...) If that is wrong, someone (like BigJim) insert the correct information.
BaltACD The "The Modern Coal fired Steam Locomotive" movie has a shot of a J's speedometer needle resting on 100 MPH. Since the film was commissioned by the N&W, it would seem that the J's were intended to be able to run at 100MPH in service. Note that being able to run at 100MPH is not the same thing as being normally operated at 100MPH. - Erik Movie was made in the 40's - well before the ICC's speed regulations were implemented.
The "The Modern Coal fired Steam Locomotive" movie has a shot of a J's speedometer needle resting on 100 MPH. Since the film was commissioned by the N&W, it would seem that the J's were intended to be able to run at 100MPH in service. Note that being able to run at 100MPH is not the same thing as being normally operated at 100MPH.
- Erik
Movie was made in the 40's - well before the ICC's speed regulations were implemented.
I realized that when watching the movie - related issue was that the J was designed well befoe the movie was made.
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