I had a thread on this last year and am glad that others have expanded the information on this little known aspect of eastern steam railroading. One person replied that the RI had a few track pans in the Chicago area, probably for their suburban trains.
Ed Burns
Happily retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis.
BaltACDSteam would not be injected into the water. The water pan would be surrounded by steam and/or hot water piping that would keep the contents of the pan liquid.
So you would propose making all the track pans with double bottoms, and pay to keep tnem sealed? With more than half thr heat going to the 'outer' side and bottom, where it radiates away pointlessly ... or were you insulating them, too? And then do what with the condensate, which is composed of... what? Or have to keep your 'hot water' circulating through a whole system of return pipes?
Compare the heat recovery and water rate of an open FWH with a closed one. That alone tells you enough about where the steam went and how it was used.
In Staufer's book on NYC later power he has a clear picture of the insulated steam line on one of the NYC track pans. I've never seen a picture of pans that weren't single wall; if you have a reference that shows otherwise, I'd like to see it.
Deggesty I like the ending of the material in the link: "One fireman would often tell of the time when his train made the station stop at Wilmington after scooping at both Swan Creek and Stanton and to his surprise, he saw a man stumble away from “the blind,” soaking wet. He called it to the attention of the engineer, who was also surprised and said,”I'll bet it's the first time that bum has had a bath in a while and this time it's with the compliments of the B&O!” After all, the railroad's hallmark was “personalized customer service”.—RN"
I like the ending of the material in the link: "One fireman would often tell of the time when his train made the station stop at Wilmington after scooping at both Swan Creek and Stanton and to his surprise, he saw a man stumble away from “the blind,” soaking wet. He called it to the attention of the engineer, who was also surprised and said,”I'll bet it's the first time that bum has had a bath in a while and this time it's with the compliments of the B&O!” After all, the railroad's hallmark was “personalized customer service”.—RN"
I have heard similar stories about people 'riding the blind' - in winter they didn't just end up cold and wet, they ended up frozen and dead.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Track pans were first installed by both the NYC and PRR in 1870. By 1929, NYC had 71 pans in various locations around the system and PRR had 80. These two were by far the major users. Track pans tended to be used only in areas where trains ran on fast schedules and couldn't take time to stop, such as the New York City to Chicago lines of both the above railroads. Each set of pans had a small heating plant nearby to keep the water from freezing. They were used on both roads until the end of steam.
samfp1943 BaltACD 54light15 Experience tells me that direct injection of steam into anything leads to excessive make-up water for the boiler and excessive scale built up in it and therefore increased maintenance costs. I would think that for a large railroad as for many others that use such a system such as mushroom growers who must steam clean the growing beds, that's just a cost of doing business. Steam would not be injected into the water. The water pan would be surrounded by steam and/or hot water piping that would keep the contents of the pan liquid. Found the following site that is a pretty complete explanation of Track Pan Operations on the line between Washington,D.C. and Jersey City,NJ. on the B&O RR shared by the Reading and the CNJ. "Track Pans and the B&O Royal Blue Line" By R.N. Nelson see link @ http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/working-at-csx/retirees/regional-organizations/rabo/alumni-news/track-pans-and-the-bo-royal-blue-line-by-rn-nelson/?mobileFormat=true FTL: [snip] "...There were four track pan locations on the Washington-Jersey City route, all fed by surface water, where steam locomotives scooped water on the fly, reducing the total running time by about 25 minutes. The national average distance between track pans was 30 to 45 miles, working best on tangents and requiring a roadbed that was absolutely level. The few track pans in the United States were all on eastern railroads. There were only two track pans on the entire B&O system, both on the B&O’s portion of the Washington-Jersey City route—one at Swan Creek, Maryland, 2.0 miles east of Aberdeen, and the other at Stanton, Delaware, 0.7 miles east of what would become Delaware Park Racetrack. Both were installed in 1893 and required some regrading of the roadbed to make the locations absolutely flat. The two other track pans on the route were at Roelofs, Pennsylvania, on the Reading and at Green Brook (Middlesex, New Jersey) on the CNJ..." [snipped] I had no idea that there were track pan on any other lines than the NYC, I am sure that there were others, but the only ones that ever seem to get comments are the NYC's. It was very interesting to see the very complete comments on the B&O's/RDG/CNJ operations by R.N.Nelson.
BaltACD 54light15 Experience tells me that direct injection of steam into anything leads to excessive make-up water for the boiler and excessive scale built up in it and therefore increased maintenance costs. I would think that for a large railroad as for many others that use such a system such as mushroom growers who must steam clean the growing beds, that's just a cost of doing business. Steam would not be injected into the water. The water pan would be surrounded by steam and/or hot water piping that would keep the contents of the pan liquid.
54light15 Experience tells me that direct injection of steam into anything leads to excessive make-up water for the boiler and excessive scale built up in it and therefore increased maintenance costs. I would think that for a large railroad as for many others that use such a system such as mushroom growers who must steam clean the growing beds, that's just a cost of doing business.
Experience tells me that direct injection of steam into anything leads to excessive make-up water for the boiler and excessive scale built up in it and therefore increased maintenance costs. I would think that for a large railroad as for many others that use such a system such as mushroom growers who must steam clean the growing beds, that's just a cost of doing business.
Steam would not be injected into the water. The water pan would be surrounded by steam and/or hot water piping that would keep the contents of the pan liquid.
Found the following site that is a pretty complete explanation of Track Pan Operations on the line between Washington,D.C. and Jersey City,NJ. on the B&O RR shared by the Reading and the CNJ.
"Track Pans and the B&O Royal Blue Line" By R.N. Nelson
see link @ http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/working-at-csx/retirees/regional-organizations/rabo/alumni-news/track-pans-and-the-bo-royal-blue-line-by-rn-nelson/?mobileFormat=true
FTL: [snip] "...There were four track pan locations on the Washington-Jersey City route, all fed by surface water, where steam locomotives scooped water on the fly, reducing the total running time by about 25 minutes. The national average distance between track pans was 30 to 45 miles, working best on tangents and requiring a roadbed that was absolutely level. The few track pans in the United States were all on eastern railroads.
There were only two track pans on the entire B&O system, both on the B&O’s portion of the Washington-Jersey City route—one at Swan Creek, Maryland, 2.0 miles east of Aberdeen, and the other at Stanton, Delaware, 0.7 miles east of what would become Delaware Park Racetrack. Both were installed in 1893 and required some regrading of the roadbed to make the locations absolutely flat. The two other track pans on the route were at Roelofs, Pennsylvania, on the Reading and at Green Brook (Middlesex, New Jersey) on the CNJ..." [snipped]
I had no idea that there were track pan on any other lines than the NYC, I am sure that there were others, but the only ones that ever seem to get comments are the NYC's. It was very interesting to see the very complete comments on the B&O's/RDG/CNJ operations by R.N.Nelson.
Johnny
The Pennsylvania Railroad was probably the largest employer of track pans in the US. In fact, I believe they may have been the first road anywhere to use them. I'm sure there is a map out there, somewhere, of their system track pans. I've seen many photos of pans in use on the Middle Division right up to the end of steam in 1957.
Several issues back "Classic Trains" (Fall 2013) had a story by a gent who scored a cab ride on a NYC locomotive. He was a teenage railfan at the time and his father arranged it.
As if the cab ride wasn't thrilling enough, the young man got to experience a water scoop from a track pan. As they approached the pan the fireman took him by the elbow and moved him to the center of the cab.
He said the scoop was incredible, a long roar like thunder during the process and he could feel the tender shaking in the cab.
Unforgettable, even decades after the fact.
The Herron Video Rail DVD "Reflections of the New York Central" has some good track pan action shots.
54light15 Heated in the pans themselves or in the water towers? I would think they'de freeze up pretty fast out in the open air. Also, I assume that the water is treated with boiler chemicals and I can only assume that the dosage is going to be diluted during a heavy rain or snowfall.
Heated in the pans themselves or in the water towers? I would think they'de freeze up pretty fast out in the open air. Also, I assume that the water is treated with boiler chemicals and I can only assume that the dosage is going to be diluted during a heavy rain or snowfall.
We had a thread on track=pan heat relatively recently. I believe at least some pans used LP steam bubbled directly into the pans to keep them unfrozen, as well as maintaining the water at reasonably elevated temperature. Cleaning debris out of the pans would be done manually at whatever times traffic would permit.
With the amount of water lost both in spray and through high-speed overflow vents, it would make comparatively little sense to use many of the kinds of boiler treatment. I would have concerns about using water of appropriate alkalinity in an exposed pan, and of course any expectations of oxygen scavenging would be laughable. (Etc.) Probably Better to use dosing in the tender, based on testing and ease of use by working crews-- and be consistent babout it, as Porta indicated.
There are some areas... filtration or softening, perhaps... where it might make sense to bulk-treat the water before sending it to track pans. Most of the railroads that chose or had to pretreat, though (ATSF being the example that comes to mind) did not use pans.
There are many stories of accidents when the scoop was not retracted or could not be retracted. One wreck I believe entailed a railroad tie getting jambed up the scoop into the tender.
I have been very curious as to if surviving NYC "Mohawk" 4-8-2 locomotives NYC 2933 or NYC 3001 have this water pick equipment remaining? Most New York Central engines had this feature. It was not common for other railroads to do this. I am betting NYC 3001 had it removed as the Texas & Pacific bought the engine for display as one of their own T&P engines in Dallas, Texas and tried to modify it to look so. NYC 2933, however, was saved on railroad property by accident, all the other NYC engines having gone to scrap.
NYC 2933 went to the St. Louis Museum almost entirely intact and wasn't picked over on the deadline or while on display and should have the water scoop equipment remaining.
Dr. D
That makes sense. I imagine it would be a boiler with steam through shell-and-tube heat exchangers that heat the water going out to the pan.
As for the track pans on the New York Central in Huron, Ohio the had a boilerhouse that heated the pans, The father in law of a friend of mine was hired to man the heat and check the pans.
Heated in the pans themselves or in the water towers? I would think they'de freeze up pretty fast out in the open air. Also, I assume that the water is treated with boiler chemicals and I can only assume that the dosage is going to be diluted during a heavy rain or snowfall. Medical students are such jokers. Eeek!
The New York Central used heating plants to prevent freezing during
the winter.
From what I've read about this...
The track pans were always filled, not just before the locomotive was to pick up water. I don't believe freezing was an issue if there were frequent pick-ups to keep the water stirred up. I suppose in really cold environments the water was heated.
As far as foreign matter in the water I don't think it was much of a concern, although I believe it wasn't unusual to pick up the occasional turtle or frog. There are storys, probably apocryphal, about medical students leaving the odd body part in the trough, like an an arm or leg from a cadaver, to gross out the engine crews. Whether that's to be believed or not is up to you.
I have a few questions about this. When a locomotive picks up water from a trough, does the water sit there throughout the day? Is the trough filled shortly before the train is scheduled to arrive? What is done in the dead of winter like right now? Is the water heated? In a shallow trough, the water would freeze solid, wouldn't it? In the fall, it would be full of leaves and whatnot, right? What would be done about that?
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