I have recently discovered that the Nashville, Chattanooga, & ST. Louis 4-8-4 Displayed in a park is NOT the only steam survivor from the railroad!!!!!!! I don't,t know if this is new or old news.... But to me it is breaking news to me. There is in fact TWO OTHER Steamers. There are TWO N,C & ST.L 0-4-0t,s put in storage in a shed or building together. In a town named Tracy City. Tennessee. Now if they and the 4-8-4 could be brought back together permently. And brought back to operation ..... How cool would that be? But the main part were these two 0-4-0t,s
JOSEPH the steam buff I have recently discovered that the Nashville, Chattanooga, & ST. Louis 4-8-4 Displayed in a park is NOT the only steam survivor from the railroad!!!!!!! I don't,t know if this is new or old news.... But to me it is breaking news to me. There is in fact TWO OTHER Steamers. There are TWO N,C & ST.L 0-4-0t,s put in storage in a shed or building together. Now if they and the 4-8-4 could be brought back together permently. And brought back to operation ..... How cool would that be? But the main part were these two 0-4-0t,s
I have recently discovered that the Nashville, Chattanooga, & ST. Louis 4-8-4 Displayed in a park is NOT the only steam survivor from the railroad!!!!!!! I don't,t know if this is new or old news.... But to me it is breaking news to me. There is in fact TWO OTHER Steamers. There are TWO N,C & ST.L 0-4-0t,s put in storage in a shed or building together. Now if they and the 4-8-4 could be brought back together permently. And brought back to operation ..... How cool would that be? But the main part were these two 0-4-0t,s
Joseph: As you mentioned, I am not aware of TWO 0-4-0T's still preserved, as locomotives from the NC&St.L. RR.. It would be interesting to find some information on those locomotives, and their histories.
I do know of another potential set of 'American's'. preserved from railroads that predated the ownership of the NC&St.L They are the "Texas' and The "General" both from the Western & Atlantic Railroad. Both historicall significant locomotives, involved in the Civil War action that has become known as "The Great Locomotive Chase".
The TEXAS is preserved in Atlaga (Ga) in the Cyclorama Building, In Grant Park, at Atlanta. See link for some history on the 'Texas': @ http://www.greatlocomotivechase.com/t_preserved.html
The "General' is currently preserved in Kennesaw, Ga; at the Southern Museum of Civil War and Locomotive History. After the Civil War it was stored (awaiting Scraping?) near Vinings, Ga. It was 'rescued' and in 1901 it was placed in the basement area of the RR Station in Chattanooga,Tn. and was sent out several times over the years for exehibitions in other locations. About 1959 (or so). The L&N RR took ( some still maintain they "stole it") and went to the Shops at Louisville for an overhaul and'modernization prior to a campaigne by the railroad to travel its territory for exhibition along with a 'Jim Crow' Combine car to hold historical exhibits. See link @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_General_(locomotive)
In May of 1962, Ther General and the Combine were at Memphis Tn to celebrate the local " Cotton Carnival" I was fortunate to be able to ride behind her, as she circled Memphis from Central Station and back. ICRR' Riverfront line, to L&N Passenger bypass ( now location for St.Jude Hospital on theROW) out to Leawood Yard, back on to the IC/L&N East Freight bypass back to Central Station. see link @ http://www.greatlocomotivechase.com/gbigday.html
@ http://www.greatlocomotivechase.com/texas.html
Sam I found the engines on the steam locomotive information site. They are sitting intact and quite dusty. In a town called Tracy City.Tennessee. They seem to still have there yellow painted hand rails. I have heard of the great locomotive chase. Crazy stuff. Even more crazy that both locomotive's survived.
The American Civil War affected our nation in ways far greater that we comprehend. The war itself was one of the founding events to our modern railroad system in the United States. Before the war railroads used various track gauges from 3' to 6' it was the war and need of military transportation that brought public awareness to the potential of train travel. President Lincoln realizing that it was the "way of the future" signed the public act creating a transcontinental railroad that is today Union Pacific.
Modern timekeeping, railroad communication by telegraph and the extension of mass communication by telegraph were greatly influenced by the American Civil War.
The south and its railroads were impacted by the war in that most were "wore out" by the war if not destroyed outright in various combats. The south came out of the Civil War in an economic and political shambles that has lasted until modern times. One of the reasons Southern RR had no large steam locomotives was because they were not needed. Post Civil War business was just not there.
Civil War veterans constituted the majority of the military leadership through the First World War. In the 1890s as the world was adopting the modern military rifes following the Mauser pattern, the US Military leadership argued about "a one shot only capability" a configuration based on Civil War mindset. Because Civil War tactics showed soldiers would waste precious hard to supply ammunition. In the Spanish American War the US had the Krag Rifle which was very inferior to the Spanish Mauser with its multi shot capability. Even in WWI and WWII the American Springfield 30-06 still featured this useless "single shot" selector on the rifle reciever.
American Civil War had millions of veterans who mostly lived into the 1930's. These were the people of the "railroad age." They championed and built the American railroads through the west and gave us the great heritage of "on time" performance and "public service." As well as an equally commendable commitment to travel through all types and conditions of weather.
The US railroad system under their leadership and unionization became an unwieldy monolith which owing to its structure was unable to grow with the nation into the 1950s. Briitish railways were built on an entirely different concept.
I feel the US railroad system was patterned after the Civil War "US Military Railroad" of which General Haupt was the designer. I feel American post Civil War railroads reflected this in its entirety; the imputus and design of what was the UNION ARMY.
In the great Civil War Soliders Reunion at Gettysburg in 1913 the soldiers gathered by railroad train on the battlfield 50 years after they fought. They came by train and some of those who did not die in 1863 on the battlefield died of medical problems and of old age at the reunion in 1913. They came in mass as if they were re-living the fight!
I also feel that this "Civil War generation of soldiers" would not forgive the South and its part in the blood bath of the war and made southerners into "scape goats" and held the south responsible for the war throughout the remainder of their lifetimes. It was almost a community censure! Since this time, however, the south found a "new age" of growth and acceptance in America following the passing of the Civil War generation. The 1930's movie "Gone With The Wind" portrayed the pain and passing.
The historic steam locomotives GENERAL and TEXAS reflect this bitter war heritage. The south saved the TEXAS in Atlanta as a cherished war momento. The GENERAL which was involved in the bitter fighting and subsequent war execution of Andrews and its Union Army commandos reflects the pain of that battle. It was still beiing fought over in the 1960s by the railroads that claimed to own it. It was spirited away in the night in the 1960's by the L&N Railroad much as it was stolen by Andrews in the war. Its operation in the 1960s was historic to the Civil War. Today the nation still does not know how to own it; notice how it is not in the Smithsonian collection in Washington, because it is covered in the blood of "brother against brother!"
By the way Nashville, Chattanooga, & ST.Louis 4-8-4 was used by Johnny Cash on one of his album covers with some kind of teapot making steam for the photo, and all the charizma of "Tennessee secession from the union" is part of its southern charm!
Indeed we need to claim our southern war heritage of "States Rights Forever!" in the face of the onslaught of mindless modern US Government Federalism like Amtrack!
Doc
So, Samfp1943, you got to ride behind the "General"? Lucky Devil-Dog you!
And DrD, just a few minor corrections to your post:
The US military leadership around the time of World War One wasn't composed of Civil War veterans. The last Civil War vet in uniform was General John Clem, the "Johnny Shiloh" drummer boy. He retired in 1914.
It is true that Civil War vets dominated army leadership into the 1890's. The Krag rifle you mentioned did have a magazine cut-off, and compared to the 1893 Spanish Mauser it really was a pretty good rifle, the super-smooth action prized by American hunters and shooters well into the 20th Century, but the main defenciency of the Krag was it didn't have a stripper clip loading feature so it couldn't be reloaded as quickly as the Mauser. The Mauser company surprised everyone with that feature.
The good ol' '03 Springfield rifle had a magazine cut-off as well, however without getting into a lengthly dissertation on turn-of-the-20th-Century infantry tactics let me say those designing the rifle believed they had pretty good reasons for putting it on. Just how much it was used is open to conjecture. Personally I don't believe it was used all that often, if at all.
As far as the philosophy of "soldiers'll waste ammunition if they're given a big supply of it" there were quite a few Civil War vets who said those who think so should find themselves on a battlefield with a single shot rifle and see how THEY like it!
There certainly was a certain amount of bad blood between the Civil War vets of both sides that persisted into the 1890's, but by the Great Reunion at Gettysburg in 1913 that was pretty much over with. The combined efforts of all Americans during the Spanish War pretty much put that to rest. There were even some ex-Confederate generals like Joe Wheeler and Fitzhugh Lee who became US Army generals during that war.
Just an example of how the animosity had subsided. Around 1890 then president Grover Cleveland proposed the return of captured Confederate regimental flags in the War Departments collection to their respective Southern states. Well, ol' Grover thought the roof was going to come off! The various Union Army veterans groups went ballistic! The proposal was quietly dropped. In 1905 President Theodore Roosevelt made the same proposal. This time, no problem. The flags were returned, some of which you can see today at the Museum Of The Confederacy here in Richmond.
You are VERY much correct when you say modern industrial America was born with the Civil War. Industries in the US prior to were pretty much "father and son" outfits until the massive infusion of Federal cash caused the growth spurt.
And certainly the American South was an economic backwater until the demands of both World Wars, especially the second one, caused a major cash infusion into the area.
The invention of air-conditioning sure didn't hurt either.
I do not know what year The General was placed there, but in the fifties, it was in the concourse of the NC&SL station in Chattanooga (I admired it there a few times, including one morning when I watched the northbound Dixie Flagler as it backed in)--until it was spirited away to be put into operating condition. There was quite an uproar over the "theft."
Johnny
Quoting Firelock: "The US military leadership around the time of World War One wasn't composed of Civil War veterans. The last Civil War vet in uniform was General John Clem, the "Johnny Shiloh" drummer boy. He retired in 1914."
It would have been rather difficult for any of the men who led in the War for (or, Against) Southern Independence to have commanded in the "War to End All Wars," unless they had found the Fountain of Youth--even the boys who enlisted in 1861 were in their seventies when President Wilson decided to "make the world safe for democracy."
Fitzhugh Lee, nephew of Robert E. Lee, who was a brigadier general in the Confederate cavalry when in his thirties, commanded the Seventh Army Corps during the Spanish-American War, when he was in his sixties.
Deggesty Fitzhugh Lee, nephew of Robert E. Lee, who was a brigadier general in the Confederate cavalry when in his thirties, commanded the Seventh Army Corps during the Spanish-American War, when he was in his sixties.
Brig. General Thomas L. Rosser who served as a Major General commanding a Cavalry Brigade under J.E.B. Stuart served as Commandant of the Cavalry School, during the Army expansion during the Spanish-American War. To bring this back to railroading, Thomas Rosser was the Division Engineer of the Eastern Division of the Northern Pacific RR, and was the Chief Engineer directing the construction of the Canadian Pacific Rwy under Wm Van Horne.
Some may know the L&N bought & operated the NC &StL Dixie Route in the 1880's and merged the 2 roads in the 1950's. THe deal prevented the NC & STL from ever reaching St Louis.
These days CSX uses the Windy to get from Nashville to Memphis.
So how about the two 0-4-0ts that are just sitting in a shed from Tracy City. Tennessee. From the railroad.........
Dr D Indeed we need to claim our southern war heritage of "States Rights Forever!" in the face of the onslaught of mindless modern US Government Federalism like Amtrack! Doc
JOSEPH the steam buff So how about the two 0-4-0ts that are just sitting in a shed from Tracy City. Tennessee. From the railroad.........
Well Joseph, we've got to look at it this way. Those 0-4-0's belong to SOMEBODY. Only that somebody knows what his plans are for them. Anything else is just conjecture on our part.
JOSEPH the steam buff I have recently discovered that the Nashville, Chattanooga, & ST. Louis 4-8-4 Displayed in a park is NOT the only steam survivor from the railroad!!!!!!! I don't,t know if this is new or old news.... But to me it is breaking news to me. There is in fact TWO OTHER Steamers. There are TWO N,C & ST.L 0-4-0t,s put in storage in a shed or building together. In a town named Tracy City. Tennessee. Now if they and the 4-8-4 could be brought back together permently. And brought back to operation ..... How cool would that be? But the main part were these two 0-4-0t,s
Dr D: Your revisionist Civil War history seems to be bleeding over into a political discussion, which may be inappropriate here.
Joseph: I don't know whether the 0-4-0t's are truly NC&StL engines or not. My first thought was that they could have been shop switchers or tie treatment plant switchers. The Engineering Dept. is another obvious possibility. No matter what, the 4-8-4 is certainly the only NC&StL road engine, and it will always overshadow these little teakettles for that reason alone.
Tom
ACY Dr D: Your revisionist Civil War history seems to be bleeding over into a political discussion, which may be inappropriate here. Joseph: I don't know whether the 0-4-0t's are truly NC&StL engines or not. My first thought was that they could have been shop switchers or tie treatment plant switchers. The Engineering Dept. is another obvious possibility. No matter what, the 4-8-4 is certainly the only NC&StL road engine, and it will always overshadow these little teakettles for that reason alone. Tom
The two locomotives in question belonged to the engineering department. I've been to Tracy City many times and the folks that own them have no interest in dealing with the public (that from the locals there). They're locked away in an undisclosed location and will remain there for the forseeable future.
Those two 0-4-0's will surface eventually, just as those two ex-D&H Baldwin "Sharks" locked away in the Midwest will surface eventually.
Time does have a way with things. As the saying goes, "You can't take it with you, nor can you send it on ahead."
And what's line line from the country song? Correct me if I've got it wrong...
"You didn't bring it with you and you can't bring it back,
I ain't never seen a hearse with a luggage rack!"
I was told there was a fellow who actually managed to take it with him. He had accrued massive wealth in life, and took it to heaven with him in the form of gold bricks. When he got to heaven, he told St. Peter he wanted the best cloud, with the nicest view, and he was prepared to pay for it. When he showed the gold to St. Peter, the old fisherman said "How come you brought a bunch of paving stones with you?"
My apologies for inserting theology into this discussion.
Further question: Are there any ex-NC&StL diesels still in existence?
It is a shame to go into digging for the info only to know they may not come out of there tomb. I am very happy to finally know that they are in fact N,C & St. L 0-4-0ts. I do hope they do steam again. I wanna thank all of you for the help and fun info. Plus I injoy making these forums and keeping in touch with you all. I may be 22. but when I am in these forum discussions I simply forget my age and enjoy my knowledge and others with me.
Age doesn't matter much here Joseph, we can all learn from each other here and it amazes me what we learn from each other.
This Forum's a priceless, bottomless well of wit, wisdom, and knowledge.
We're all still learning. As Bob Dylan said, "He not busy bein' born is busy dyin'".
You're right, Firelock, but there's also quite a bit of good ol' fashioned B. S.
CSSHEGEWISCHFurther question: Are there any ex-NC&StL diesels still in existence?
Yes. Someone will know more than I do, but there's at least 1 44-tonner (#100) at Cowan), and a GP7 (710) and a couple of F units (F3A and F7B, 814 and 919) at TVRM. That will get the ball rolling...
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