54light15 Leo, I am not agreeing with you about depth.
Leo, I am not agreeing with you about depth.
The level of oxygen, as well as what organisms can be supported, is a function of depth. That's why, for instance that ancient wooden vessels that sank thousands of years ago in the Mediterranean, at certain depths, have been preserved as if time has stopped.
The Yorktown is a full mile lower than the Titanic. There was no marine growth on her when she was discovered and the oxygen content, necessary for corrosion and to support marine life, is all but non-existent. There's an abundance of life at the depth of the North Atlantic where the Titanic rests, including the rusticles that are formed by microbes eating away the steel of shipwrecks such as her and the Bismarck.
And everything else equal (Which it certainly isn't), RMS Titanic was first located in 1985. The Yorktown was found with the better part of 20 fewer years under the ocean waters in comparison. Nobody knew where the Titanic was back in 1968, nor do we know how she appeared (There was still plenty of hull paint to be seen in the 1980s on Titanic, for instance of how quickly things changed by the time most of the expeditions, and high quality camera and video footage, was undertaken that we're most familiar with). Nor have we returned to the Yorktown since 1998.
Their varying conditions have no bearing on the quality of the steel used on Titanic. There was nothing inferior with her steel, which has been proven in tests. It was brittle in frigid temperatures, but so was the steel used aboard the Yorktown and every other steel hulled ship until the 1950s when the problem was cured.
Leo, I am not agreeing with you about depth. Yes, the Yorktown and the Titanic are both at very deep levels, not sure that the variances in depth would make that much difference but one is heavily corroded, one is not. The President Coolidge was wrecked off Espiritu Santu in 1942 and is in very shallow water and remains in good condition.
I've read and I don't remember where unfortunately, that a divot of metal that was left after punching out a rivet hole in one of the Titanic's plates was used as a paperweight in someone's office. Many years later it was chilled to the temperature that the Titanic experienced. An impact test shattered it.
Just to keep this a tiny bit on topic, I'd like to retract an earlier post where I essentially gave this a zero percent chance of realization. Now that I've learned about the team behind this, while they no doubt have a long road ahead with a high chance of not realizing their dream, it certainly is the best team one could put together in North America today to give this dream its best chance of being realized in the end.
I know I won't be counting them out.
54light15 I have to disagree with you on that.
I have to disagree with you on that.
Disagree about what? If it was what I said about water depth, you went on to immediately agree.
Although it's worth noting that Yorktown sunk 30 years later than the Titanic and that the Titanic was in much better shape when she was first discovered than she was just 10 years later when expeditions to her started to regularly occur for a few years (They even used to land subs at such spots as the deck above the Marconi room, now collapsed, in the earliest years). Plus, she was obviously built to somewhat lighter standards than a fleet carrier would be.
But only Heaven knows what she would've looked like in the late 1960s.
Firelock76 Yorktown was built of much better steel than the Titanic was, and throw on a cover of that good tough Navy paint and it's no surprise she still in pretty good shape. Despite the stories of inferior steel used in the building of the Titanic, in actual fact it was rolled iron, not steel, so those iron-eating bacteria going to work on it have had more than enough available to satisfy their case of the munchies. Oddly, the iron-eating bacteria's supposedly unique to that spot of the North Atlantic. Poor old Titanic couldn't even sink in the right place.
Yorktown was built of much better steel than the Titanic was, and throw on a cover of that good tough Navy paint and it's no surprise she still in pretty good shape.
Despite the stories of inferior steel used in the building of the Titanic, in actual fact it was rolled iron, not steel, so those iron-eating bacteria going to work on it have had more than enough available to satisfy their case of the munchies.
Oddly, the iron-eating bacteria's supposedly unique to that spot of the North Atlantic. Poor old Titanic couldn't even sink in the right place.
The Titanic's hull was built of steel. And top quality steel at that, which I think someone already even mentioned earlier in the thread. The bits that have been put through lab tests from the so called "big piece" of steel plating and rivets that was recovered back around 2000 or so held up extremely well.
It was brittle in the cold, but so was all steel until advances in metallurgy in the postwar years cured that issue.
erikemOne of the more credible theories I've read on the Titanic was that it was the poor quality of the wrought iron rivets used in the first and last fifth of the hull (the rest of the hull was joined with steel rives). The rolled ito plates held up, but the joints between plates were sprung because of the rivets.
That theory was essentially debunked in those tests that I mentioned. A rivet failed, but it didn't open up the entire riveted seam and the other rivets took up the load.
I believe that this has more recently been proven again, with modern steel plates and rivets of similar composition that were assembled per how it would've been on the Titanic, which was put through stress tests. Once a rivet failed, the others similarly held instead of parting at the seam, with the seam remaining watertight.
I believe that the theory with the widest acceptance in recent years with the discovery of portions of her double bottom on the seafloor, is that she actually rode up on top of a submerged portion of the iceberg.
The commonly held line of thought since 1912 of a big gash opening on the side, which was continually revised downwards since exploration started, seems quite possibly entirely incorrect.
Firelock76 I've heard the poor-quality rivet story myself, and all I can say is Harland and Wolff, the builders of the Titanic were a first-class outfit who didn't cut corners. If there was a problem with some of the rivets it certainly wasn't intentional, and at any rate the below the waterline rivets were of the "flush" type to reduce drag on the hull. There wouldn't have been any protruding rivet heads for the iceberg to impact. The damage to Titanic was pretty much to be expected when a 45,000 ton moving object collided with a one million ton non-moving one. Something had to give, and unfortunately it was Titanics riveted plates.
I've heard the poor-quality rivet story myself, and all I can say is Harland and Wolff, the builders of the Titanic were a first-class outfit who didn't cut corners. If there was a problem with some of the rivets it certainly wasn't intentional, and at any rate the below the waterline rivets were of the "flush" type to reduce drag on the hull. There wouldn't have been any protruding rivet heads for the iceberg to impact.
The damage to Titanic was pretty much to be expected when a 45,000 ton moving object collided with a one million ton non-moving one. Something had to give, and unfortunately it was Titanics riveted plates.
I said this in another thread a while back about boiler explosions, and think it's worth quoting again.
Leo_AmesLost in the disaster with the Titanic is that she was a fine vessel that was extremely well built and should be remembered as one of the heroes of that tragic night instead of being viewed as responsible. She was simply a victim of extremely bad luck and recklessness. If only more of her crew could've lived up to what the ship accomplished that night instead of sailing at high speed into iceberg infested waters that they were warned about, sending lifeboats out nearly empty, and so on. She'd probably be almost forgotten about today. Instead, she stayed afloat with mortal damage for nearly 3 hours (And significantly longer than her designer's estimation of how long she had to live). She saved many lives that night and did something extremely uncommon, she sunk on an almost even keel rather than capsizing (Probably due to many unsung heroes in her engineering department, I suspect, that were handling her ballast tanks and flooding compartments throughout the tragedy to keep her on an even keel until the end). As such, lifeboat operations were able to continue right up until the final moments and her crew needed every second of that.
Instead, she stayed afloat with mortal damage for nearly 3 hours (And significantly longer than her designer's estimation of how long she had to live). She saved many lives that night and did something extremely uncommon, she sunk on an almost even keel rather than capsizing (Probably due to many unsung heroes in her engineering department, I suspect, that were handling her ballast tanks and flooding compartments throughout the tragedy to keep her on an even keel until the end).
As such, lifeboat operations were able to continue right up until the final moments and her crew needed every second of that.
Dr DThe crew has been found as you say thrown from the pilot house and on the floor of the lake in front of the bow of the ship.
Doc, I'm familiar with all of that and never disagreed with how the Great Lakes preserves what ends up at its bottom (Witness all the wartime aircraft wrecks off our two sidewheeler training carriers that have been recovered in recent years looking beautiful outside of the fabric covered control surfaces), although the invasion of the zebra mussel obscures and is wrecking much of it these days.
But what I said about her crew is accurate. The rumored discovery of a body at the bottom of the stairs into the pilothouse has never been confirmed by anyone on that expedition. So it remains just a rumor.
And the body off the pilothouse, while confirmed, has had a bit of doubt casts in the years since. While it seems highly unlikely some other poor sailor ended just feet away from her pilothouse, some have speculated that the life vest he's wearing is of a much older style than the Fitz would've had onboard (If described accurately, since I believe no pictures of the discovery were released out of respect for the loved ones).
And as I recall, the body wasn't found by Jacques Cousteau. In fact if my memories are accurate, he wasn't even onboard when they made their short dive of only a few minutes on her during their Great Lakes cruise. This discovery was 10+ years later.
Leo Ames,
Regarding shipwrecks of Lake Superior. "The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the witch of November comes stealing!" This is a line from the song "The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot. You can hear it on u-tube. He wrote the song to comemorate the shipwreck.
The crew has been found as you say thrown from the pilot house and on the floor of the lake in front of the bow of the ship. There are color photos on the internet somewhere taken by remote vehicle or when Jacques Cousteau viewed the wreck by submarine.
There are some deep water US Navy wrecks in Lake Ontario near Niagara Falls that were similar to the United States "man-of-war" NIAGARA. A squadron of these warships was hit by a squall during the War of 1812 and sunk. These authentic sailing ships from the war are undeteoriated on the bottom of the lake complete in sails, rigging, and with the sailors in uniform on the wreck. Jacques Cousteau discovered these wrecks also. The Canadian Government asked the US Government for title to the ships which was given by President Ronald Reagan under the condition that the bodies if recovered would be returned to the United States.
Winter wrecked at Isle Royal in the middle of Lake Superior in December 1927 was the steamship SS Kamloops. This misfortunate ship was making the transit of the lake in the late fall before the ice set in. An engine malfunction caused the ship to go adrift with passengers and crew, which then drifted onto the rock shoals of the island. The crew was glad to reach shore but the winter was setting in and the drifting ship was using its fuel to heat the cabins. Frantically the ships engineers were using the on board tools to remove the cylinder head of the steam engine to effect repairs before it drifted in shallow grounded and went over on its side. Time ran out and the ship listed on the shoal which rose up from 160 foot to 280 foot lake bottom. Kamloops quickly flooded trapping the repair crew in the engine room. The remaining crew and passengers fled the ship and later died of exposure on the island before winter abated, the shipwreck is still on the lake bottom near "12 O'clock reef."
Scuba divers traveling to Isle Royal National Park regularly dive the wreck and report encountering the bodies of the repair crew who have been floating inside for almost 100 years. "The flesh was of a waxy appearance."
Quoting from Shipwrecks of Isle Royale National Park, The Archeological Survey by Daniel J. Lenihan Principal Investigator, "Southwest Cultural Resources Center Professional Papers Number 8", 1987. Published by Lake Superior Port Cities. p201.
"One human body was confirmed present in the engine room by the ROV. Reliable accounts by sport divers indicate there are more, with the number varying from two to five. The body observed and filmed by the robot vehicle seems to be in a sopafied state. This could not be confirmed by touch, but the appearance is white and appears textured. Adipocere formation is common for suberged corpses. This is a process in which soft tissues are converted into a soft waxy-type substance, frequently compared to soap. That this condition should still be noted after 50 years is remarkable, but apparently not unique in the Great Lakes, since at least one other case on an Isle Royal shipwreck is known. Again, there is not convergence from viewers of the tape regarding the issue of whether or not the clothing has survived intact. Although common sense would suggest this to be the case, and some divers have reported that at least one of the individuals was wearing bib overalls, this is not confirmed by the ROV..."
Yes, fresh water can have some remarkable preserving qualities, especially in the deep cold.
It might be interesting to note that among the natural substances of the earth, water is one of the few that upon becoming solid has greater boyancy than when liquid. Ice floats upon its warmer unsolidified mass. All other substances do not have this property, otherwise the solidified ice would be at the bottom of the water it is made up of!
Doc.
The authors of the book I read seemed to blame the slag inherent in wrought iron. In addition the authors were pointing their fingers more at the Board of Trade than Harland and Wolff for not properly regulating the manufacture of wrought iron. They specifically mentioned that wrought iron rivets were used on the bow and stern because there wasn't room for the hydraulic press needed for steel rivets.
FWIW, the authors also maintained that icebergs are more like a firm slush as opposed to coral reef like hardness, which also goes along with the plates bending rather than fracturing.
erikem Despite the stories of inferior steel used in the building of the Titanic One of the more credible theories I've read on the Titanic was that it was the poor quality of the wrought iron rivets used in the first and last fifth of the hull (the rest of the hull was joined with steel rivets). The rolled plates held up, but the joints between plates were sprung because of the rivets.
Despite the stories of inferior steel used in the building of the Titanic
Firelock76 Yorktown was built of much better steel than the Titanic was, and throw on a cover of that good tough Navy paint and it's no surprise she still in pretty good shape.
The caption on the picture that I saw of the Yorktown credited the heay coats of paint with the steel being on good shape.
I have to disagree with you on that. The Yorktown is 3 miles down and is in good condtion. The Titanic is 2 miles down and is heavily corroded so I think it's a matter of the oxygen content of the waterin that area. In any event, wouldn't the NYC and other railroads often change out boilers, trucks and other parts and it would still be considered the same piece of equipment?
Dr DIn the bottom of lake Superior the crew of the wrecked ship Edmund Fitzgerald are not decomposed owing to the cold water.
There are rumors a body was found at the bottom of the pilothouse stairs, and there's a body a ways off from the pilothouse (Thrown clear when the bow hit the lakebed). But I've seen some debate if that one is from the Fitzgerald, since apparently the body is wearing an older style of lifevest.
And the interior discovery remains unconfirmed, possibly in an attemplt to placate families that don't appreciate the intrusion into their loved one's final resting spot by keeping it hushed up.
Dr DI don't know how damaged that Delta truck could be getting torn loose in the explosion but I guarantee it could be repaired by welding, and a boat with side scan sonar, like that which is available today, should be able to find it relatively easily.
It was a very violent wreck, I don't share your certainty that it escaped virtually unscathed.
Furthermore, if all you want is an original piece, surely there are bells and other such pieces out there that were removed and kept by various people.
54light15We've all seen pictures of the Titanic, it's heavily corroded. I've seen pictures of the sunken Bismarck and aside from battle damage, it's in pretty good shape with not a lot of corrosion visible. Same goes for the U.S.S. Yorktown, it's covered in marine growth, but the metal is solid.
In salt water, it's mostly depth that decides this.
I don't remember much of anything except a very thin layer of silt on the Yorktown, not much deeper than many of us probably have with dust in various places in our homes. Not much marine growth at all, as I recall.
She pretty much looked like she had just gone down yesterday, when this happened back around 2000 or so.
S. Connor,
We are back at the legal and moral quagmire disussed earlier in the post.
This "is it what it is?" question was a big insurance issue back in the 18th century when Lloyds of London was the major insurer of ships and shipping. Lloyds would insure almost anything for any price. If a ship is damaged or needed to be rebuilt can the insurer get out of paying for the repair if 20% of it is replaced and it is no longer the ship that was insured by Loyds? What about 50%.
No the courts found, and it has been adopted as "due process of law" that if the SS Jane is repaired entirely out of itself it is still the SS Jane! This has to be this way or what you own would not be what you own.
Does NYC 999 which has a different tender, the wrong drive wheels, a different boiler, missing the original walnut wooden cab, wooden cowcatcher etc. Is this still the NYC 999? Legally Yes!
In the War of 1812, Commander Oliver Hazzard Perry sailed to victory over the British on the US warship NIAGARA. After the war the ship eventually detoriated so badly that it was sunk in a break water to the harbor in Cleveland. In the 1930's it was dug out of this mud bank and what was found was a rotten keel and a few remaining ribs with maybe some bottom planking. The ship was rebuilt and is considered to be the original - it sailed last year in the 200 year re-enactment of the fight at Put-In-Bay, Lake Erie.
"Due process of law" holds that if the airplane or boat is rebuilt however it was constructed, original or not, it is still what it is.
Now for many antiques what shall we consider as a professional standard? This is somewhat of a "professional" opinion that can be held, but it is also one that changes with time. One generations standard for "museum quality" is different than another. Do we want to keep NW 1218 running if we have to replace most or a major part of her boiler? What part constitutes a restored and a reproduction? Where do we draw the line? Is UP 844? when she was UP 8444? many of her parts have been mixed with her parts source surviving sister UP 838?
In some contexts "the law" is the answer and in some contexts "the market" i.e. "auction house" is the answer. In some contexts its a "museum board" - depends on what is intended to be done with what is restored. So a "community of museum professionals" or a "community of antique car restorers" or "boat restorers" decides - and we can choose to be in agreement with this or not.
Several people on this post pointed the standards for antique airplane restoration. I myself mentioned the antique boat community. Antique cars are often reassembled from many junk cars and as long as the parts are from a particular model year the car is considered an "original car." Except for "original paint" which can only be put on the car once and at the factory on the original parts - go figure!
Take the case of diesel railroad engines such as the few surviving ALCO PA's which are very rare - only a couple survive re-powered with different diesel prime movers - in one instance only the cab shell was left and not much of that - such as the one retrieved from Mexico which is being restored cosmetically for the Smithsonian Museum, Washington - are these six surviving butchered up diesels lettered for the wrong railroads still ALCO PA's? Well everyone seems to think so.
Legally, could NYC 5315 be rebuilt using only her trailing truck if it was the original? What if we add an original NYC Hudson whistle, headlight, and NYC Hudson tender from NYC 5313?
Furthermore, I never heard of a steam locomotive having a legal title of ownership, no department of motor vehicle registration. NYC had a bill of sale, and probably a New York Bank was used to purchase it in trust. The trailing truck was part of the bill of sale and trust agreement, so was the NYC 5313 tender, which tenders were often switched from locomotive to locomotive in overhaul.
NYC 5315 was considered to be scraped after the Little Falls, NY wreck in April 1940 only New York Central didn't get the the whole locomotive into the melt furnace for scrapping - some of NYC 5315 survived! - and the New York Central Railroad isn't around to give us their opinion.
In some contexts it seems legally NYC 5315 could be ressurected using this surviving part - the Delta truck and tender from NYC 5313 and a few other HUDSON artifacts. It would have a fairly legiimate case for being original considering what is done with diesel railroad locomotives and in other fields of antique restoration. One thing is for sure its as close to the original as we will ever get to a NYC J1e 4-6-4 HUDSON - and legally it probably would be considered the original engine.
One thing, NYC 5315 Hudson (which is missing most of its parts) won't be is a NYC 3001 Mohawk (which engine is also missing much of its parts), and it won't be an even more original NYC 2933 (which is missing only a few of its parts).
GET IT?
Doc
Firelock,
I agree with you completely on that.
As you mentioned, The Kentucky rifle is still a Kentucky rifle, but is none the less, still a reprodcution.
I personally prefer the original, historical fabric over reproduction whenever possible. That is the point I am trying to make.
Why bother saving the original fabric of a locomotive at a museum if it is still considered original without it? That sort of conteracts the idea of preserving the originality of the locomotive.
I believe Dr. D's using the antique aircraft restoration philosphy, to whit, as long as SOME of the airplane is original, even as little as a wing spar or the instrument panel, it counts as an original no matter how much has been replaced.
It might be a bit of a stretch to call a new Hudson an original if the only original component is the trailing truck, but it depends on your point of view, doesn't it.
As far as I'm concerned, if you build a Hudson it's a real Hudson, it doesn't matter how old it is.
Look, you don't tell a guy who's built a Kentucky rifle it's not a Kentucky rifle because it's not 200 years old! He's likely to bend the barrel over your head!
He won't shoot you with it because he doesn't want to create any anti-gun statistics!
Dr D "Just think of it - AN ORIGINAL J1e NYC HUDSON RESTORED! - Makes the mind race! Doc
"Just think of it - AN ORIGINAL J1e NYC HUDSON RESTORED! - Makes the mind race!
Bearings usually arn't a problem and I believe a J1e probably had brass bushings or bearing halves running against a polished steel axle using cotton waste with oil for lubrication. The booster engine was likely the same as I cannot imagine the technoloy of 1927 equipping this with ball and roller bearings - they were in the infancy of their design.
Anyway brass bushing on a steel shaft is about the most repairable bearing in the world provided the steel is not burned from running hot with a load. Rust is no problem because it is so repairable.
A steel shaft can be turned slightly undersize and a new steel surface is then available - axle shafts for rail were maybe 5 inches in diameter and a .020 cut would take .010 off the surface - perfect for use. The brass bearings would come out of the water unchanged by time.
Cylinder surfaces of the booster steam engine could be sleeved with a steel insert or new pistons made and the cylinder bored - no problem.
Nothing in that Delta Engine Truck would be un-repairable today - the technology was not that advanced and the materials it was made of were just about indestructable short of a cutting torch and steel melt furnace!
Back to the issue of the trailing truck. The frame may be in decent shape even after that long immersion, but how well have the various bearings held up??
Speaking of under fresh water, I've heard years ago that there is a sunken frieghter somewhere on the lakes with a cargo of brand new 1930 DeSotos. Preservation under water is all a matter of the oxygen content of the water, either salt or fresh. I've seen pictures of WW2 aircraft that have ditched in lakes in Northern Canada, the parts above the water surface were weathered and the parts below the surface were pristine. We've all seen pictures of the Titanic, it's heavily corroded. I've seen pictures of the sunken Bismarck and aside from battle damage, it's in pretty good shape with not a lot of corrosion visible. Same goes for the U.S.S. Yorktown, it's covered in marine growth, but the metal is solid.
They haven't tried to shoot 'em? Gee, I thought the Dive Team and Bomb Squad cops would have gotten together over this one!
They have not tried to shoot the cannons but during a 300 year aniversary of the French founding of Detroit they re-enacted Cadillac coming ashore from a boat. Oddly there are many descendants of the French settlers still living in the Detroit area who can trace their families back to the settlement.
Since it requires an ability to read French and the focus of most of the local history has been American or British it is now a fertile field for French archeology and history studies. Many of the records of early French Detroit are in Montreal, Canada and are viewed and studied by scholars.
Much of this recent work has been about the roll of Indian and French women. Apparently the Indian women of the Ottawa tribe prevented an uprising against the French by pursuading the men that womens intuition merited trust among the French and Indians. Cadillac had his wife here in Detroit and she was quite popular among the Indians.
I'm sure that trailing truck is still where the event left it. Just how visible it'd be after seven decades of river silt had piled up on it is something else. Still, unless someone goes looking for it we'll never know, will we?
And talking about cool stuff on the bottom of the Hudson River...
I kind of wish someone would go looking for the Fort Montgomery chain from the Revolutionary War. This was the first of the great chains that blocked British warships from passing up the Hudson River during that war. When the Redcoats captured Fort Montgomery in 1777 they cut the chain and let it fall to the bottom of the river. The spot's just a little upstream of where the Bear Mountain Bridge is now. If I was a sport diver I'd probably go looking for it myself.
I'm curious: Anyone ever tried to shoot those recovered French cannon you mentioned?
The ICC report on the accident is available on line. Al Staufer gives an extensive account of the accident in Thoroughbreds. Basically the engineer went into the 50 mph curve at something like 70 which would not have wrecked the train. For some reason the Road Foreman of Engines was riding in the cab and survived. It is unclear if he interfeared with the engineer but he never disclosed doing any thing but chastizing the engineer about a speed reduction. Suddenly the throttle was closed in mid curve the slack ran-in on the train, and the force of the following cars lifted NYC 5315 off of the rails crashing it into a rock retaining wall. This wrecked the train with the death of the engine crew and many passengers. Like I said amazingly the road forman of engines survived to tell his account.
The railroad scrapped the engine and reported the rear truck missing and supposed it to be in the Mohawk River. In those days no one cared what went into the river and accident investigations were not like today's airline crashes.
An examination of the photos shows the boiler blew out thu the firebox bending back the frame and hurling the rear truck with slingshot effect into the river.
I have been to Little Falls and examined the wreck site. A somewhat sleepy overgrown community and it seems without a doubt the truck was never recoved from the river. Who would want it? This is not the kind of thing that is just picked up on a whim. If there are navigation charts it may even be showen as an underwater obstacle. The Detroit River marks boat wrecks and junk in the river as such.
Having lived on the Detroit River most of my life I know from personal experience the amount of stuff that goes into a river and what eventually comes out. As I said it being fresh water the corrosion is reduced to almost nill. The Detroit River has yielded recently the cannons - artillary - used in the French fort by Cadillac when the city of Detroit was an outpost in the wilderness. It was just dumped in the river. Along with old speedboats, outboard motors, guns and cases of whiskey left by the rum runners. My friend Kile Sise is on the Detroit Police Dive team and they love to junk pick the river when they dive. The French cannons came out of the river about like they went in.
In the bottom of lake Superior the crew of the wrecked ship Edmund Fitzgerald are not decomposed owing to the cold water. "For crying out loud" Niagara Falls froze over this winter!
I don't know how damaged that Delta truck could be getting torn loose in the explosion but I guarantee it could be repaired by welding, and a boat with side scan sonar, like that which is available today, should be able to find it relatively easily.
You're assuming that it survived this bad wreck, which resulted in the only wreck related retirement of a NYC Hudson, in a state where it could be salvaged and re-used.
And that's anything but a sure thing. But I agree that if such an amazing project ever got off the ground, it would be worth looking, just in case. I too doubt that the years submerged have caused so much deterioration as to render it useless.
The question is what happened to it back in 1940.
Regarding the survival of an origional NYC J1e New York Central Hudson 4-6-4 locomotive.
There remains one original Hudson J1d locomotive tender from NYC 5313 and one original Delta Hudson trailing truck with booster steam engine on it from NYC 5315 the first J1e built. It's at the bottom of the Mohawk river in Little Falls, NY.
I wonder if this tender and rear truck put togeather are enough to constitute an original locomotive should the rest of the engine be fabricated?
Oddly the 5315 was the only Hudson "lost in service" - it was a total wreck after the accident on April 19, 1940. Should it be restored it would mean that the only Hudson "lost in service" would be the only survivor - Go figure!
Anyone interested in fishing for a lost NYC 5315 Delta trailing truck? Its right in the river where the boiler explosion kicked it 70 years ago.
For "crying out loud," they found RMS Titanic on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean three miles down! How hard can it be to find a big steel engine truck with small booster steam engine in a small American river!
A NYC Hudson J1e with bolted frame would not be much more of a project than British Toranado 4-6-2 Pacific recently fabricated new - and the NYC Hudson would be a rebuilt original J1e locomotive.
Corrosion is not an issue, WWII fighter planes are coming up off the bottom of Lake Michigan in mint condition. Ships sunk 100 years ago are on the bottom of the lake with the paint still intact - this engine truck will come up completely usable from the fresh water that it has been preserved in.
thomas81zIs this thread about the T1??? Lol
Recent posts are about an important part of the fabrication of 5550. So yes, in a very real sense it's 'about' the T1.
Ensuring that the frame can be properly made at all is one consideration; making it to higher quality at lower weight than a typical cast bed is another; making it at reasonable cost, at required long-term dimensional stability, etc. are others. I understand that some of the technical details may be 'dry' or boring to people who just want to see a T1 running again... but it's very important that the T1 be right, net of all its real or supposed issues, before it is expected to run again.
Year back here was a story - probably fictional - of a "car knocker" who retired after some 40 years. He boasted that it was the same hammer. He had worn out 10 handles and it was on its third head, but it was the same hammer !!!
The ~400 tons was for the "bearing" that transmitted the rudder forces to the rest of the hull and as well as the forces from the steering gear to the rudder. Since this was on a CVN, the weight of the machinery would be a bit larger than a DDG.
- Erik
From the post above by erikm, 400 tons sounds like a lot for even the complete assembly including the rudder.
The complete propulsion plant for a DDG-2 "Charles F Adams" only weighed around 800 tons. I spent a few days cleaning up the seal on a damaged DDG-2 rudder stock once. It would have weighed several tons and there were two of them, one for each screw.
The castings I spoke of earlier were controllable pitch propeller blades for the FFG-7 class frigate. I can't remember how much they weighed but there were five of them and the cost with hub was more than a million dollars.
I'm not familiar with the carriers but I'd assume they'd need at least two rudders. It is possible that the full set of rudders could weigh more than 100 tons.
M636C
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.