Hi Wayne
Moi je parle Français ? Mais oui .. même qu’on doit spécifier : ca va come ca . It helps a lot for understanding French technical books (*g*) and to better feel the design philosophy realized to varying degrees of perfection or imperfection in la locomotive à vapeur quattre cylindres compound .
If I should ever find time for it I should post a translation of a chapter in “Hommes et Machines” , a cab ride on a 241.P assigned to a night express from Nice fór the very last time before the few remaining 4-8-2s were to leave Marseilles-Blancharde shed for the North due to electrification completed on the ‘Ligne Imperiale’ of the former PLM : riding was smooth as it had always been , handling was with professional sensitivity , or should I say empathy , there was little sign the end of an era was up and yet while the engine went along racing through the moon-lit night a thought crept up in the back of the author’s mind : the 241.P – were would she be tomorrow ..?
It really conveyed emotion and feel of it , that story .. that’s all I will say ..
Regards
Juniatha
Hi Juniatha!
What a fine young lady you are, you proved my point of "look the world over and who doesn't like steam?"
Obviously this looks like a page from a French steam-freak publication.
Wow, you speak Francais as well?
Wayne
locobase
Sure , that old general service speed limit of 120 km/h made railways look for good uphill speeds for fast start to stop travelling speeds . On the NORD ( C d F du Nord - Northern Ry of France ) the long 0.5 % ramp of fame at Survilliers was passed at 100 km/h or better by express trains with Nord Super Pacific or the series of Chapelon Pacifics the C d F du Nord had built after extensive exchange trial test of their own Super Pacific with said C d F P.O.-Midi 231.700 series Pacific and Mountain types from C d F de l´Est ( later 241.A ) and PLM ( 241.C.1 new prototype engine ) , where it was found the Chapelon Pacific clearly ( ! ) outperformed both Mountain types in spite of the PLM 241.C.1 having a 30 % larger grate and much larger boiler .
Later , the NORD also tested the Chapelon 240.700 Chapelon rebuilt engines , a note from this site
http://loco-diffusion.fr/index.php?page=loco&article_id=12
Sur Vierzon/Limoges, avec un Express de 654 tonnes, la 4701 a franchi le sommet de la rampe de Bersac qui fait 6 mm/m à la vitesse de 112 km/h avec 4000 CV de puissance indiquée aux crans HP et BP, 2560 CV au crochet. En 1934, la 4707 a été essayée sur le réseau du NORD, ligne allant de Paris à Calais. Avec un Express de 759 tonnes, le sommet de la rampe de Survilliers de 5 mm/m était passé à 120 km/h soit 2800 Cv au crochet, avec 750 tonnes les 7.5 mm/m de la rampe d’Hesdigneul abordée à 100 km/h a vu son sommet franchi à 83 km/h alors que les freins étaient resté serrés !!! soit 3200 Cv au crochet. A la SNCF, ces machines ont pris l’appelation 240 A.
translated :
On the Vierzon –Limoges line # 4701 passed the summit of the 0.6 % ramp of Bersac at 112 km/h ( 70 mph ) with a 654 t [metric] express ( that should have been 13 coaches ) , performing 4000 ihp , 2560 hp at the drawbar .
In 1934 , # 4707 was tested on the NORD railway mainline Paris – Calais . With an express of 759 t [metric] the summit of the 0.5 % ramp at Survilliers was passed at 120 km/h which meant 2800 hp at the drawbar ; with 750 t the 0.75 % of Hesdigneul was attacked at 100 km/h and had the summit passed at 83 km/h although the brakes didn’t properly release which took 3200 hp at the drawbar . On the SNCF these engines were listed as series 240.A
CSSHEGEWISCH Firelock76 I'll tell you, travel the world over and who's doesn't like steam? If anyone has a problem with steam I'd say, "Buddy, steam ain't the problem, YOU are!" Wayne I have no problem with steam locomotives but I also have no real interest in them, either. It's hard to miss what you never really had.
Firelock76 I'll tell you, travel the world over and who's doesn't like steam? If anyone has a problem with steam I'd say, "Buddy, steam ain't the problem, YOU are!" Wayne
I'll tell you, travel the world over and who's doesn't like steam? If anyone has a problem with steam I'd say, "Buddy, steam ain't the problem, YOU are!"
I have no problem with steam locomotives but I also have no real interest in them, either. It's hard to miss what you never really had.
It is arguably presumptious to claim that "you are" the problem for not liking steam locomotives and steam power. You can't impose on someone what they like and what they don't like.
I too had a deep skepticism regarding steam. Steam is wasteful of fuel and polluting with billows of smoke (largely true). Steam is dangerous (also true, not only for locomotives -- the ASME that establishes boiler codes had an article of a fatal accident on a Navy ship in the runnup to the 1991 Gulf War involving a substandard fitting in a 600 PSI steam circuit). Steam is costly and high maintenance (this point is arguable based on historical data). Steam locomotives pound the track (partly true, but Diesels have their own way of damaging track).
But a foreign visitor had me hosting the touristy things you never do when you live in a place, and I got to see one of the locomotives at North Freedom, Wisconsin in operations. That thing is alive! It hisses and burbles and creaks and chuffs. The machinery is in full view, and when a locomotive starts under load, recovering from a slip, it is like a contestant on that TV program you are rooting to make it through the obstacle course. Or a light engine can just creep along with fractional driver rotations like a cat stalking a mouse.
Steam is a dinosaur that once had its place in the sun and has been passed over by more evolved forms. But like the dinosaur, there was a time when steam ruled, and to dismiss steam or the dinosaur as being primitive suggests a misunderstanding of what they were and why they were important in their day.
You don't need to have nostalgia for times past to come to liking steam for what it was and what it is.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Thanks for posting the great video links, =J=
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Oh wow, those videos you posted are just too kool for words. I see I'm going to be exploring all those other German steam videos I saw some evening, possibly with a bottle of Rheinwein and a few Kaiser rolls.
I'm struck by how the deep-toned whistles on the big steamers, especially that Class 52 sound like the "hooter" whistles the Norfolk and Western used on their Class A's and Y's. Sounds like those German locos would be right at home in some "holler" in the Virginia mountains.
And those diesel and electric horns, pretty lame to say the least.
That disco music at the beginning's a bit jarring though. Maybe "Alte Kameraden" or the "Praesentier Marsch" would be more appropriate, or "Fredericus Rex" for the Prussian locomotives?
Thanks so much for posting these!
Oh , there were plenty of level crossings in Britain with their widely diversified network by the private railways - it all crumbled during BR to motoring as usual . I believe it was just an idea that high pitched whistles were better heard over the distance - according to acoustics this is not really true , yet it could have been such high pitched 'screams' were better standing off from usual surrounding sounds . The same idea seems to have been followed with Prussian railways loco's also high pitched whistles . One thing it would do in Britain , France or Germany / Poland : once a whistle was pulled in my innocent presence it would cut into my ears to let me drop whatever I should be holding in my hands just to cover ears , probably still feeling half deaf afterwards - that's a way to drive down the message on you : "train's-a-coming , no doubt whatsoever, you hear !!?" The French squeaking , whenever let loose on a sound recording I have always found most embarrassing - just the thought of an American pedigree 141.R Mike coming up squeaking like this .. O-M-G , glad I never had to hear *that* acoustic environment pollution in real - only on sound recording where you can quickly turn off the volume - *g* ! The old Prussian P8 4-6-0 sounded rather like a spindly old guy with falsetto voice , it's more like " ..xcuse me , mind to give way , must keep schedule ! " The British version I heard from a beautifully restored Gresley Pacific was surprising , somewhat restraint as if not allowed to fully speak up , not too hard , yet at least for me never fully blending with steam power . Say " there she goes again !" I still like the DR standard variable pitch deep sound whistle which is somewhat akin to Baltimore & Ohio steam power and about a compromise between the very deep ships horn sound of typical of big American steam ( where it is befitting ) and the European old-timers high pitched sounds . As in this video of a 52 running by light engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18CRnCYPao
and here in a collection of cuts with locos whistling – as a contrast at 3:10 for once you hear the high pitched whistle of an ex Prussian T16 tank engine ; deplorably , I have to say , most all of the drivers pull whistles quite insensitively , heavily , just letting it go all out ; there used to be a tradition of making melodies with these whistles which seems to have been completely lost with these blokes .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGEjHMmNhU
Another collection of all kinds of locos whistling :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdtI5WRVR8
at 1:28 you hear again an ex Prussian T18 ; 1:39 is a Swiss tank engine ; 1:48 is a reboilered DB 41 Mika , she only whistles after having run by ; 2:00 another of the same type in the hills - more modulation this time and with a slight hint of echo from the woods ; 2:20 again an ex Prussian T18 4-6-4 tank engine ; 2:30 another one of the reboilered DB Mika ; 2:40 one of the preserved 01-10 three cylinder Pacifics , can't see which one – DB reboilered engines were given a somewhat higher tone whistle than the 'old' standard one ; 2:50 this is not a whistle in the words meaning , perhaps a loco farting , after all it's a diesel ; 3:03 nice example of a 50 class Decapod with standard whistle ; 3.15 high pitched Prussian whistle on a G12 ( 58 class ) three cylinder Decapod ; another T18 ( 78 class ) with a surprised or surprising (?) " oops !" ; 3:33 an 01-10 in the distance , nice modulation here ; 3:55 again the G12 working uphill ; 4:00 from on board a steam special : a guess-who signal from one rebuilt DB type and an ex Prussian answering ; 4:10 simple sound of an ex DR electric , DB 112 class ; 4:15 granny T18 making herself known on the road again ; 4:28 in stark contrast : the noise of DB 211 diesel who superseded the T18s ; 4:30 also painfully syncopate noise by a V65 shunting diesel ; 4:40 in train station at night : 52-80 resounding whistle and deep throated , easy departure ; 5:02 narrow gauge tank engine pulling at last resort ; 5:24 Prussian and DR standard whistles calling in the night at parallel departure ; 5:42 rather unimpressive “hi !” from a 52-80 passing with steam shut off ; 5:49 some of the new red apparitions passing without much fuss ; 5:55 ex Prussian P8 ( 38 class ) TenWheeler coming up around the bend ; 6:03 three cylinder Pacific 01-1075 departing cautiously ; 6:16 sudden "oops !!" by a DB 140 standard electric ; 6:20 from on-board the steam special : one of the valiant surviving oilfired reboilered DB Mika working uphill ; 6:40 typical high pitched whistle of a DB electric - we're back to the high-scream sounds again !
Enjoy and regards
I would guess that fenced rights-of-way, a paucity of grade crossings, etc. would lessen the necessity of a loud American-type whistle as a warning device. It may be that the whistles on British locomotives were used more for communicating with the rest of the crew, levermen and other operating personnel.
I just watched one of Mario's videos again, the last one with the French locomotive with the squeaky whistle.
Taking a slight issue with Juniatha, in an odd way that I can't quite put my finger on that high-pitched whistle just seems to work with a French engine. Can't explain why. Maybe because it conjures up images of the "Orient Express", maybe it gives the thing an air of mystery, I just don't know.
The thing I can't figure out is why the British put a high-piched "peep" whistle on their locomotives. Considering Britains maritime heritage I would have thought a full-blooded "steamboat" type whistle would be more to their liking, making the train sound like the "Mauritania" or the "Queen Mary" coming into harbor.
Or maybe they liked the "peep" whistle because it sounds like a bosun's pipe?
>> Since you did not complain, I assume the curators of these priceless objects do take proper care of <<
Dave ,
All it means is : I didn't see any obvious wanting points - that doesn't imply there are none . I just didn't see any at first glance on that video .
The locomotives may as well be perfectly happy , or they / or one of them might silently suffer from something you don't easily recognize visually - I won't say anything about that because I don't know these locos from first hand experience .
Let's just hope for the former to apply ..
Hi Juniatha! OK, no more World War One aviation. Back to steam.
>> Turn-and-bank indicator? That's what the seat of your pants was for! <<
That exactly was what doomed the Air France Airbus on that Mid-Atlantic flight returning from Bazil in storm : with banking angle / nose up / nose down inline with lateral / vertical acceleration you don't feel *any* acceleration and this makes such a situation difficult to perceive without visual axis . It seems what 'helped' was their helplessness in a situation where computer flight had become at least partly affected and they felt a lack of practical hand-controlled flight experience . However I'll check my verbal flow rate herewith and say no more .
Shall we return to the subject - ehm , what was it again ..?
I'll say this much, that replica Fokker Dreidekker had a better assortment of instruments than the original did! Back in the First War aircraft usually had a tachometer, an oil pressure gauge, a fuel gauge (but you'd better have a pocket watch mounted on the instrument panel as a back-up!) and maybe, just maybe, an altimeter. That was all.
Turn-and-bank indicator? That's what the seat of your pants was for!
Paul ,
Well , as far as arrangement backwards of inside cylinders was concerned it didn't look too cramped , although involving some unusual solutions ; in front of inside cylinders how ever , there was a buch of unbelievably French design and construction . In general it was characterized by delicate rods , built up crank axle with counter weights on both inner and outer crank webs , yet steam conduct seemed decently ok , although not brilliant ; all that in between 'antique design' thin bolted plate frames - one major point André Chapelon had so much wanted to overcome with his 1950s family of High Performance types .
Here is a link to a site with description and drawing of the series 241.P
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p30_e.html
side elevation of 241.P
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_plan2.jpg
same in more detailed larger scale
Inside valves were controlled partly by derived motion from outside valve gear , each having inside combination lever , though . Because of the set-back position of the inside cylinders valves were controlled from their front end which demanded an unusual connection of the combination lever to the front extension of the piston rod . As with outside cylinders , in spite of slanted cylinders proper , steam chests were kept horizontal . HP / LP Cut-off thus was linked of course . Clearly this arrangement stayed behind level of perfection of control of expansion already reached in earlier four cylinder compound series such as the NORD Super Pacific , the various Chapelon Pacifics and others where HP and LP cylinder had individual control of cut-off and in cases could even switch into true simple expansion working with HP exhausting directly and LP receiving live steam via special secondary throttle . In the 241.P this was simplified to boosting receiver pressure by live steam for "demarrages énergétiques" ( powerful starts ) - which shifted power output away from inside HP cylinders to load larger outside LP cylinders the heavier .
Well, you did get a peak inbetween the wheels. What did you see there?
Hi , Paul
>> These are machines, not exhibits of fine art at the Louvre. If the museum guard was a proper gentleman, you would think that you could have explained your interest in the mechanical design of the inside motion and he could have called over a curator to answer all of your questions? <<
Oh-là-là , monsieur , c’est à mois maintenant de dire « je vous en prie ! » Tout à fait , il ne faut oublier que ces-ceux ne sont pas de machines ordinaires mais de vapeur de tout l’art de la construction de machines Mountains à quatre cylindres compound – il n’y est pas possible de permettre aucun personne à relever leurs secrets intérieurs .
Or in other words : In France ? nope , no exeptions !
>> modern American instruments <<
.. that’s were they met their wit’s end – what’s altitude in Gerrmann ? what’s banking angle ..?
Hi Helmut
Speeds : correct , this type never got back to original 120 km/h due to being hard on rails on entering curves . That didn’t mean she didn’t ride smoothly , only she hit outer rail to hard by first coupled axle for the sort of track then used – wonder what very much stronger modern track layout will do to the crank axle which is leading coupled axle in this type . As concerns accessibility , I think the unique 241.P layout wasn’t worse than the deGlehn layout of the ‘Jeanne d’Arc’ Type . Anyway , thanks for posting that link to the drawing – except for it doesn’t show much of anything of the valve gear layout , it saved me to try and find one to explain at least the principal layout to ..
Hi Dave ,
it’s not that the cylinders have been detached from their valve gear or piston valves – it all had been shifted back in 1:1 style from a more regular vonBorries common axle drive which the PLM had shied so much they’d rather tried ‘a walk on the wild side’ with some pretty weird arrangements . French double crank drive axles never got to a state of rugged sturdiness which would have allowed for a million miles and more (!) as Maffei had realized with the old Baden IVh – and that in spite of service speed limit having later been raised by DR to 140 km/h with runs by test engines in the vicinity of 100 mph ! Built-up crank axles remained state of the art in France – no one piece forged axles here – and dimensioning and shaping also was on the poor side , je suis désolé il me fasse à remarquer !
Hi Mario
That hissing sound likely is a “fuite de vapeur” ( escape of steam ) at the right hand receiver , you can see steam leaking from underneath at 1:00 to 1:10 as the engine approaches – btw with a sighing at least me I interpreted as a whispered “chchocolate – chchocolate – chchocolate per turn of wheels .. a wish I could but all too well understand in this situation …
Oh , and that high pitch squeaking – horrible , it insults both ears and engine - it should have been confined to 0-6-0 switchers !
A little bit more about 241P's ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_Class_241P
Anyway, all the talking about the 'Mistral' might not be correct, since it was a crack train, maybe it woulfd be getting a Pacific authourised to 130 such as a 231G or a 231K
Some more info about 231G's & K's : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tat_231-501_to_231-783
And, as always, some vignettes (it's an apropraite frenchie name for this movies)
231K8 (on a tourist line hauling a train consisting of some open platform cars of german design, sorry, coudn't find any movie of it working at 'main line' speeds). Judjing by the sound (or is it just my impression), it seems to be working only on 2 cylinders, and doing a lot of 'low smoke' 'for the picture'
watch?v=6b5uxCnTG3g
And 231G558 (working on a proper main line and at main line speed), with a beautiful train of main line cars
watch?v=Mbrm0pBYhpo
Anyway, that typical french whistle, while pretty strong, seems to be somehow appropriate. I would prefer 'em with some sort of 'Mountains' de L'Est Chime
Exactly what advantage is claimed for moving the cylinders away from the valve motion toward the rear of the locomotive?
Hi Juniatha,
good to be hearing from you again!
... so it should be quite a fight to keep the train fed propelly in order to keep the train as close to the top speed of 120 Kmhr as possible (Later, I think after the war, this was rased to 130
According to Chavy, Maillet, Gibert: Les Mountain Francaises, Breil-sur-Roya 1992, p. 24 the speed limit for the 241 A was 107 km/h and "Défense absolue de dépasser 110 km/h" from 1935 on.
As for the 241P: There is an interesting drawing published here:
http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_coupe.jpg
I wonder what the poor maintenance men thought about this arrangement.
Best wishes, Helmut
Reminds me of when I was 15 years old and ducked under the ropes at an aviation museum to check out the cockpit of a replica Fokker Triplane.
Being a replica of course it had modern American instruments. It WAS cool though!
At least I didn't get caught!
Madame, I beg of you!
You poked your head inside the museum exhibit locomotive, no?
These are machines, not exhibits of fine art at the Louvre. If the museum guard was a proper gentleman, you would think that you could have explained your interest in the mechanical design of the inside motion and he could have called over a curator to answer all of your questions?
Juniatha Hi - thanks for making us ware of the video ! Provided 1:1 speed of video they seemed to have hit about 70 mph in the scene 4:16 to 4:30 .
Hi -
thanks for making us ware of the video ! Provided 1:1 speed of video they seemed to have hit about 70 mph in the scene 4:16 to 4:30 .
Hello ;
I wouldn't say 70, but 62 Mph (100 km/h), because of 241P's 'Auxiliary' tender. Normally that kind of freight car is limited to 100, but there might be some exceptions. Anyway, sometimes aomeone might close their eyes a little and some times these trains can go a little faster. I just remember an history that was told to my by a british friend. On a certain train with an A4 steam engine (a sister of Mallard, wich I think was called Union of South Africa), on a certain trip in the mainline, with the train limited to 75 Mph, the BR inspector incidentally placed his coat on the spedometer. When they uncovered it, tha train was doing 98.
As dir the Est main line, known in the times of 'Region Est' of SNCF as Ligne 1 (Paris - Strasbourg), feeding a 241A by hand should be something quite violent. With the exception of a small ramp on a flyover and the area around Saverne (in this it still catches some parts of the Ardennes forest, with some tunnels and grades in the vicinity of 1 %) and the long ramp at Loxeville, it's flatland, so it should be quite a fight to keep the train fed propelly in order to keep the train as close to the top speed of 120 Kmhr as possible (Later, I think after the war, this was rased to 130, but only with certain engines. Only some diesel railcars were allowed at 140. The tech departments of SNCF were quite conservative, and only in the late sixties or early seventies trains, but back then already powered by 25 Kv AC 'Juice' were allowed to reach 160) . It would also be worthy of note the so called 'Ligne 4' of the same region (Paris - Belfort - Moulhouse - Basel), used by such famous trains as the Oriente Express, and with a slightly more tougher profile than Ligne 1
M
Great to see and hear such steamers alive and well. Since you did not complain, I assume the curators of these priceless objects do take proper care of all the valves! And in the running sections I did not see clouds of steam continually escaping from the cylinders. What a relief!
.. and so they went steaming into the night ..
The EST ( for Chemin de Fer de l'Est - Eastern Railway ) and SNCF ( Societé Nationale des Chemins de Fer Francais ) Mountain types were antitheses to each other in that the former was a deGlehn four cylinder compound with small hp cylinder outsides while the other with a PLM pedigree had the reversed layout . In the French railway museum at Mulhouse I saw both types as highly polished yet cold-as-ice samples . The EST Mountain is of a different version with more upright style of smoke deflectors and ACFI preheaters both sides of the smokebox top . Its delicate rod system inspired me , she had a certain seriousness about her look and when a friend mentioned he had nicknamed the type 'Jeanne d'Arc' the name took on me immediately . They were hand-fired and looking up that firebox with long combustion chamber and minding on the Eastern mainline Paris to Strassbourg they had run trains of up to 22 coaches at mile a minute start to stop schedules I felt a slight shiver running down my spine : that had *really* meant work – not just by the sheer amount of coal fed but also you had to know pretty well what you were doing at all times during the trip . In all of that , the only comfort the Jeanne d’Arc type had conceded her crews was a smooth and steady running due to the very good balancing of the deGlehn compound ..
At the 241.P it flashed to me I had a chance here to check out how on earth did they manage to drive the third (!) coupled axle by inside cylinders . I looked around – there was nobody there , I stepped over the low roping and touched the spokes , cautiously ‘inserted’ my head at a point between second and third drive wheels , got my eyes adapted to the darkness in which lay the secrets of the mechanical layout and a most peculiar construction of machinery revealed itself to me . I was still figuring it out when I heard a less than amused voice behind me “Madame , je vous en prie ..!” ( madame , please .. wherein that ‘please was as much a rebuke to get out of there as it was a complaint about obvious decay of civilization as ‘even women’ are trespassing no-access areas these days )
Back on ‘official’ grounds , walking round the front of the locomotive , it looked as proud and offish as usual – yet I had seen what I wanted to see .
That's like seeing 844 and 4449 doubleheaded in the US. The SNCF 241P was always one of my favorites. Thanks for posting!!
Here's the link. Video insertion on this pc is not working
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg9Vw6zE5qo
Hello all ;
Here's a short video depicting a special tripwith two big mountain type french engines of different ancestry (the head engine from the former chemin de Fer de l'Est, the second,former SNCF). Both engines are seen operating on a special trip in Switzerland (the leading engine,241A65, is a ' Swiss 'resident'). If it wasn't for the gondola acting as extra tender,I suppose there wouldn't be no problem of having them running at 80 Mph. And, for european standars, these engines are quite big. Here's the 'motion picture' :
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