Trains.com

Southern Sisters

8126 views
38 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Monday, March 24, 2014 9:58 PM
To add some interest to this thread:
How many passenger cars has Southern 630 pulled by herself?
lois
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Thursday, March 20, 2014 11:23 PM
I found an interesting photo site of Southern steam locomotives. The link is:
southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/steam/steam.html
On this site, I found an early photo of Ms 2-8-2 #4506 with high-mounted headlight, number plate on the front of the smokebox, and alligator crossheads, as well as a small tender typical of early steam. There also appears to be an extension to the piston rod in front of the cylinder. There is no date to this photo, but it does seem to tell us much about 4501's original appearance.
lois
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:43 PM
I have just received an update on 630, she is due out of the shop soon to begin this year's excursion season. 4501, recently having been fired up for the first time since the 1990's, is also nearing completion. As regards the original condition of these two locomotives, both have multiple-bearing crossheads which were part of the improvements Southern made to its steam locomotives. The other improvements include new valve gear (is the Walschaerts on 4501 original or added later?) power reverse, stokers (never applied to 630 or 722 and to 4501 only with the recent rebuild). The Southern steam locomotives also had the distinction of having identifying markings of which shop did the rebuild on a certain engine, those more familiar with Southern steam would know what these identifying markings are.
lois
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:52 PM
If we had more railfans with the spirit you and I have toward preservation, a lot more things would get done. In the meanwhile, do any of you have an update on 630? I have not heard much from her since she went into the shop for staybolt replacement.
lois
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:44 AM

Coolthe first three words of OUR constitution IS" WE THE PEOPLE". it is up 2 u to do it. it is not done behind a computer screen.Bang Head join a historical railroad museum. donate time, money or even get ur hands in the mud, and share some hard work. no one will do it if "WE" do not.Smile, Wink & Grin

Tags: fec
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Friday, February 7, 2014 10:36 PM
That is a very good statement. If we want to see these things preserved, we must do our part to make it happen. lois
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, February 7, 2014 2:08 PM

Coolno matter who u are even theGeeked union pacific steam program which has deep pockets, there is never enough time or money. stop complaining and contribute time or money?

Tags: fec
  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 31 posts
Posted by southern154 on Tuesday, February 4, 2014 10:54 AM

Alan Harper, president of American Heritage Railways, sent a statement out that he is doing his best to protect Steam Locomotives 722 and 1702, if you look on google maps you can see that at this time tarps have been placed over both locomotives for more protection from the elements. Also 1702 has been an oil burner ever since she arrived at GSMR and if 722 were to be restored, I would think she would be oil too.

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • 3,006 posts
Posted by ACY Tom on Monday, February 3, 2014 7:58 AM
I would be very concerned about ANY steam locomotive that remains in a disassembled state for an extended period of time. This includes 722, PRR 1361, and a number of others. It hints at a lack of resources or interest to finish the job. I hope our concern isn't warranted.
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Monday, February 3, 2014 3:58 AM
Given her disassembled state, I had concern over whether she was left to deteriorate in such condition or she was being preserved.
lois
  • Member since
    November 2008
  • 1,881 posts
Posted by Leo_Ames on Sunday, February 2, 2014 10:58 PM

Friend611, what makes you seem to think that the 722 is at risk? She's safe and is in no danger of being destroyed. 

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Sunday, February 2, 2014 5:50 PM
What I have read was a report that 1702 and 722 would be converted to oil burners. This has yet to be confirmed, however, and things may change before these locomotives are rebuilt.
As to 630, she had gone into the shop for staybolt replacement, to return to service in the spring. 4501 is being reassembled, and if things go according to plan, will be fired up for the first time sometime this spring. It is hoped that N&W 611 will be sent out for restoration at about the same time, so it looks like a very interesting year for steam on Norfolk Southern.
lois
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 24, 2014 2:17 PM

Coolin Knoxville tn the old southern engine that had sat in a park since her retirement was pulled out and brought back 2 life. someone remembered it was fresh out of the southern shops before being mothballed 4 50 years and now lives and breaths fire and smoke on steel wheels and rails. our constitution says "we the people" and the Smithsonian is the peoples house. if we want it never say never!!Cool

Tags: fec
  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 31 posts
Posted by southern154 on Friday, January 24, 2014 12:50 PM

I would love to see either of the 2 GSMR locomotives return, it looks that 1702 should be back in a couple of years considering the deal with Swain county, but I would love to see a KS class 2-8-0 return to the Murphy branch, and hope to see something with 722 in the coming years.

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:12 PM
Recently found some interesting information about 722. Details will come later, as I am not sure of a reliable source. But hopefully, some work will progress on 722 in the near future, so that she is not irretrievably lost.
Her sister 630 has a bright future, already having made a name for herself on excursions, presently being prepared for another year of excursions. 630's schedule will only change when she is due to go into the shop for her five year inspection. But by then, 4501 and hopefully N&W 611 will be running. At that time, with the larger engines in service, I suppose 630 will be doing mostly TVRM work, though she might be let out on the mainline on occasion.
P.S. Was fortunate to get my moment riding behind 630 on a Norfolk to Petersburg round trip on March 23, 2013, which was also my first mainline steam excursion. A return trip is not yet in the schedule, but who knows ...
lois
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Monday, December 30, 2013 5:02 PM
However, I have heard if the arrangements are made to restore GSMR 1702, the profits from running 1702 would be used to restore 722. This is definitely a long-range project, regarding making the final arrangements and the actual time to restore 1702. I of course will not comment on the situation with this operation, leaving that to those with more information. But I do hope something is done regarding preserving 722 so she does not deteriorate too much in the meanwhile.
For the moment, I'll allow the rest of you to comment on the subject.
lois
  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 31 posts
Posted by southern154 on Wednesday, December 25, 2013 4:47 PM

630 and 722 were sold by Southern to ET&WNC between '50-'53 I believe. The reason those two were the ones chosen is because they were stored in the Asheville roundhouse and must have been in the best shape. 4501 was put in green paint because Paul Merriman, who bought her from the K&T, liked Southern's ps2 4-6-2s in green and gold and decided to paint her in SRR green and gold. When Southern  traded the 2 diesels for 630 and 722 Claytor told Bill Purdie to paint one locomotive in Southerns freight paint (gold and Black) and the other in green and gold like 4501 and the choice of the locomotives was up to him. 630 received minor repairs and was painted black while 722 needed and received heavy repairs and emerged the green engine of the 2. Like mentioned above, I learned most of this from Jim Wrinn's book             Steam's Camelot (highly recommend read). There you go!

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, December 24, 2013 1:36 PM

I stand corrected on the streamlined PS4, but it was replaced by E-units between Montroe and Washington by late 1942 or early 1943, when I saw it regularly at Charlottesville with one A-unit and one B.   It was the second Southern Ry train to get diesels out of Washington, even before the Crescent, which did get diesels long before it got lightwieght sleepers.   Agai, the initial Tennesean sleepers were heavyweights painted silver.

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Monday, December 23, 2013 5:25 PM
N&W A's also served on the Southern trains between Monroe and Bristol, the first two A's, 1200 and 1201 doing regular service on the Pelican (for example) when they were first built. The A's were soon replaced when the first J's were built in 1941. In fact, some years ago in the N&WHS magazine, the Arrow, a photo is shown of 601 with the Tennessean, but at the end of the train, a heavyweight sleeper was used, which was painted to match the rest of the train. A second photo in a later issue of the magazine showed the sleeper, which was known as the "unicorn" because of its uniqueness. According to my records,there were two types of sleepers assigned to the Tennessean, a 12-1 routed between Nashville and Washington and a 10-3 between Memphis and New York.
lois
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, December 23, 2013 2:15 PM

Dave, the streamlined Ps4 had to run between Washington and Monroe--down in the morning and back in the evening. The Southern  passenger timetables issued at the time when the Tennessean was new show an Alco A and B on the point of this train. It took two sets  of Alcos to maintain the power on the Bristol-Memphis leg--leave Bristol or Memphis in the evening, and be at the other end the next morning. Indeed, the timetables indicated steam power between Washington and Bristol, and diesel power between Bristol and Memphis. The same timetables also show an E on the point of the Southerner

Monroe was the engine change point since it was the south end of the Washington Division, and N&W engines took the Southern trains between Monroe and Bristol.

Johnny

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 23, 2013 1:22 PM

The Tennesean was inaugurated with EMD E-units between Washington and Monroe or Lynchberg, N&W J's to Bristol, and the one streamlined PS4 between Bristol and Memphis.   The Alcos came some time after the inauguration, how long after I do not know.   While the Southerner just had one E, the Tennesean, which initially included silver-painted heavyweight Pullmans, had two, and A and a B.   Of course a regular PS4 was used whenever the Khuler-streamlined one was not available.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Monday, December 23, 2013 9:49 AM

And Alcos--when the Tennessean was inaugurated, Alcos were the power between Bristol and Memphis--and until diesels began being run through between Washington and Memphis/Birmingham/New Orleans, Alcos remained the power (though changed to PA's) for this train for this end of its run.

The Southerner was always diesel powered south of Washington.

Johnny

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 20,096 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 23, 2013 9:13 AM

and e-units for passenger before that

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, December 23, 2013 7:44 AM

Southern wasn't the only road without modern steam power after WW2 although it may have well have been the largest in that situation.  It appears that SR was also sold on diesels fairly early, considering that they had FT's in service during WW2.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, December 23, 2013 6:09 AM

I've always thought that Southern was in the same general 'boat' as PRR with respect to steam -- they spent what 'new passenger locomotive' money they had on Pacifics and such, just a couple of years before the development of Super-Power, and then had to ride out the Depression with what they had bought and paid for.  When 'new motive power' time came 'round for them again, it was diesels all the way instead of Hudsons, 4-8-4s or other approaches..

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:24 AM
However, one of the issues Southern had, in comparison to roads like N&W, was that they never had modern steam locomotives. The bulk of Southern steam was built in the early part of the 20th century, in contrast to N&W, which built steam up into the early 1950's. As a result, Southern steam locomotives were practically worn out by the end of World War II. I'll allow you to discuss further the situation on the Southern at that time.
lois
  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 6:22 PM
Just curious. Would any of you know where to find pix of 630 and 722 when first built, or one of their sisters?
lois
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: At the Crossroads of the West
  • 11,013 posts
Posted by Deggesty on Friday, December 13, 2013 10:27 AM

Yes, the men in the shop in Birmingham, did well in keeping the two running. However, one new brass that was installed on the pony truck did not do well on the first trip afterwards. In May, 1972, the 722 led the 4501 on an excursion to Opelika and back (the 4501 continued on to Columbus, Georgia, with some of the cars and such passengers as Graham Claytor and David P. Morgan). 

Before we reached Opelika, the bearing began running hot, so we were late arriving in Opelika and even later returning to Birmingham.

I have a lovely photograph of the engines crossing the Southern just east of Birmingham, on the CG's trestle. The picture is especially important to me because my then fiancée and I were on board. 

Johnny

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • 291 posts
Posted by friend611 on Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:07 PM
Of course, those modifications do not include those made while the 630 and 722 were in service on the ET&WNC. However, 722 was noted as being in poor condition when she and her sister were traded back to the Southern, and I will leave you to speculate on her situation then. However, that should not reflect on her situation now. I'm sure Bill Purdie and his crew did a professional job rebuilding 722 back then, and her situation now might reflect now more on several years of neglect as well as normal wear and tear. I have little information on this particular subject, so I will leave it up to others who know more about this before saying anything more about it.
lois

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy