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Mistreating a masterpiece?

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Mistreating a masterpiece?
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:48 AM

I'm sorry to be off-topic, but I don't know who else to ask about this. 

I just saw a trailer for next year's "The Lone Ranger" movie, and in it, there was a very beautiful 4-6-0, getting some VERY rough treatment.  How rough?  They had it flopped down on its side and sliding across some rocky-looking ground towards a collision with another piece of rolling stock, with the pistons still churning the drivers.  It hurt to watch!

  Was this an actual preservation / museum-piece locomotive, or some fresh-built fake?  If it's fake, it's a really good fake!

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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:02 AM

I seriously doubt they could get someone (private owner or museum group) to allow the studio to wreck any preserved steamer. Likely this is a full scale prop augmented with a large scale model and alot of CGI. Aside from the recent use of CGI, its a long tradition in the movies to do this, not many know that the Hooterville Cannonball in the later years of Petticoat Junction was actually large scale model for the running shots and then a full size model (actually a wood/fiberglass replica of a real locomotive built for the movie Ticket to Tomahawk  and that has a amazingly interesting Hollywood career in itself) for the station scenes. The last Zorro movie did this effectively, Night at the Museum also used a large scale model to crash into Ben Stiller's foot.

BTW I can tell you this Lone Ranger movie is NOT using the Hooterville Cannonball/Ticket to Tomahawk replica as its currently undergoing restoration in Colorado.

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Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:41 AM

 

"The last Zorro movie did this effectively"

That last Zorro movie did indeed have me believing the equipment was  real ... until they did those aerial shots of that ridiculous track layout,  with the Popeye-cartoon arrangement of switches, and the railroad-to-nowhere non-terminal. The decorated interiors of the mostly-empty boxcars were pretty funny too. And don't get me started on the trampoline -enhanced fight stunts.

That said, thank you, and I hope you're right, and your explanation sure does sound right.

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Posted by nwo4rf on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:06 PM

Remember Hollywood built a 1" scale live steam model of 4449 for the the wreck in "Tough Guys". It looked convinsing on film like they did wreck 4449. So I suspect it is a 1" or a 11/2" Live steam model that was used.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:12 PM

It's not called Movie Magic for no reason.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

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Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:31 PM

Are you trying to tell me there's NOT an island full of live dinosaurs, out in the Pacific Ocean? 

There's no Polar Express?  And no Santa Claus too, I suppose?

Ha! 

Next you'll tell me Forrest Gump wasn't a documentary! 

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:18 PM

Stoop Davy Dave

Are you trying to tell me there's NOT an island full of live dinosaurs, out in the Pacific Ocean? 

There's no Polar Express?  And no Santa Claus too, I suppose?

Ha! 

Next you'll tell me Forrest Gump wasn't a documentary! 

Ummm. ...How are we going to break it to you that Star Wars wasn't a documentaryDunce

..or that there never was a real "three hour tour" Laugh

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, October 22, 2012 8:11 AM

Well on the other hand the locomotives and rolling stock in Buster Keaton's The General and the great Burt Lancaster film The Train really were destroyed, just as you see on screen.

Dave Nelson
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Posted by k9wrangler on Monday, October 22, 2012 5:05 PM

The below paragraph is contained in the linked article: http://www.ropeofsilicon.com/depp-and-hammer-ride-in-new-pictures-from-the-lone-ranger/

There are so many train scenes in The Lone Ranger that the filmmakers built their own period train. "It was a modern train clad in a steam engine just to get through all the work we had to do," says Verbinski. "The train sequences are really entertaining." The train robbery is an iconic Western shot. "But we turn it on its head."

Karl Scribner

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Kentucky Southern Railway

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, October 22, 2012 5:25 PM

dknelson

Well on the other hand the locomotives and rolling stock in Buster Keaton's The General and the great Burt Lancaster film The Train really were destroyed, just as you see on screen.

Dave Nelson

Well, it was a little bit of a different situation with Keatons "The General"  and Burt Lancasters "The Train".  Those locomotives and rolling stock were headed for the scrappers anyway, the filmakers gave them a chance to go out in a blaze of glory.  No problem back then, but seeing that equipment destroyed, especially the 4-4-0 in the  "General" makes my blood run cold, even if it was doomed anyway.

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Posted by nwo4rf on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:00 AM

Then you would really be sad in "Rio Grande" when they took two D&RGW 2-8-0's and staged a head-on wreck with them.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:28 AM

Stoop Davy Dave

There's no Polar Express?  

IT DOES EXIST! AT THE STEAM RR'ING. INSTITUTE IN OWSSO, MICHIGAN! 

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Posted by HiDesertEd on Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:39 PM

I've never seen mention of a live steam model used for that movie but I have seen the full size model that was built for the movie.  The model was built to scale right down to the rivet heads on the tender shell.

As of circa 2000 it was still in protected/enclosed storage at Desert Center, Ca.  If you know where to look you can see in the windows of the building that it is still in fair shape but starting to show age and lack of attention.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:15 PM

nwo4rf

Then you would really be sad in "Rio Grande" when they took two D&RGW 2-8-0's and staged a head-on wreck with them.

You better believe it!

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:48 PM

vsmith

BTW I can tell you this Lone Ranger movie is NOT using the Hooterville Cannonball/Ticket to Tomahawk replica as its currently undergoing restoration in Colorado.

 
Sierra RR No.3 isn't a replica. It was built in 1893.
Stix
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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:51 PM

wjstix

vsmith

BTW I can tell you this Lone Ranger movie is NOT using the Hooterville Cannonball/Ticket to Tomahawk replica as its currently undergoing restoration in Colorado.

 
Sierra RR No.3 isn't a replica. It was built in 1893.

Very true, Sierra #3 was used as the original Hooterville Cannonball early in the series, but in the series later years to save money, they simply used stock footage of the #3, then augmented it with long distance motion film of the large scale model and then the studio leased the wooden/fiberglass Tomahawk mock-up for the in-station shots or cab shot of the actors, they even built an in-studio copy of the Sierra RR shorty combine. By the end of the series they hadn't returned to the Sierra RR for several seasons.

Here's a link to the restoration:

http://www.drhs315.org/blog/projects/emma-sweeney-2/restoration/

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Posted by seppburgh2 on Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:42 PM

A quick Google search will find that Keaton use a logging railroad that was ready for scrapping with the locomotives way obsolete at that time.  Lancaster's The Train used realy French steam all being sitting in the scrap line.  I belive the reason the movie was made was the "actors" were had for the "cheap" and no one cared what shape they came back in.  The derailment scene where the steamer comes to rest on top the camera is an all time action shot.  The camera being set up as an 'extra' which I recall the camera director didn't thing would make it. 

  If you have not seen these moves, they are well worth the price of a used CD.

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:13 AM

In a documentary on Buster Keaton, it noted that the scene of the steam engine collapsing the bridge was the most expensive single "shot" in the history of silent pictures. It noted that if you look carefully you can see some local people who got into the shot to see the bridge/train crash, and you can see a film crew man pulling a rope to remove a support from the bridge at the key moment to make the bridge collapse.

Stix
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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:40 PM

I saw a TV show not too long ago where the filmakers went to the site of Buster's bridge collapse scene from "The General".  There's still some remnants of the bridge there to be seen in the riverbed, and some assorted relics on the river banks.  If anyone goes to the site remember, "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints."  Leave the relics for others to enjoy.

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Posted by carnej1 on Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:23 AM

There are fewer and fewer Cecille B. DeMille type stunts being done in modern film-making. This is largely due to the rapid advancement of computer generated imaging techniques but also because it is extremely difficult and expensive to get the insurance coverage necessary for "live action spectacular" type stunts, especially if live actors (or even stunt people) will be in the danger zone. Most directors and producers would rather put the money saved into more CGI..

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, November 15, 2012 6:55 PM

I wonder if others feel as I do.  In a way, I think it's a shame so many movie special effects and stunts are all CGI.  In the old days you'd see a special effect and say "WOW!  How'd they do that?"  Nowadays you see a special effect and you know exactly how they did it, it's CGI.  Takes all the wonder out of it, you know?

By the way, when I see the parting of the Red Sea from C.B. DeMille's "Ten Commandments"  I still wonder how they did it!  Just amazing.

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Posted by seppburgh2 on Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:41 PM

Just my two cents, but with the advanced of cheaper more powerful computers, the directors can do away with the actors all together.  Yes, today we can spot the CGI from the real person (who is really acting in front of a blue screen), 10 to 15 years from now, no so.

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Posted by Pathfinder on Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:54 PM

On the Unstoppable DVD that we have there is a very neat feature on how the big wreck with the SD40-2 was done.  Worth watching to see how these sorts of scenes are planned and executed.  There is also a similar feature on the Fugitive (Harrison Ford movie) also worth watching.  More "real" stuff used for both movies than you might think.

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Posted by baberuth73 on Friday, November 16, 2012 8:26 AM

Are you folks trying to tell me that Shoeless Joe Jackson may not have really come back from the dead to play baseball in that Iowa cornfield? Darn.............

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Posted by rrebell on Friday, November 16, 2012 11:14 PM

I had a tenant who's father worked on the movie Union Pacific as one of the people who built the scale engines used in the crashes, he told of making the boiler out of tin foil so it would crumple on impact etc.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, November 17, 2012 9:03 AM

baberuth73

Are you folks trying to tell me that Shoeless Joe Jackson may not have really come back from the dead to play baseball in that Iowa cornfield? Darn.............

Well, that COULD have been "Shoeless Joe."   I read a story of a sneak preview of the movie "Patton" in 1970 that was shown at a reunion of Third Army veterans.  When George C. Scott walked out in front of that huge American flag one of the vets in the audience yellled  "MY GOD!  THE SON-OF-A-B**** IS ALIVE!"  Brought the house down, but they all agreed Scott nailed the role.

As an aside, I've lost count of how many times I've put "Patton" in the VCR just to watch the speech and wound up watching the whole film.  It's just magic.

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, November 29, 2012 2:15 PM

Firelock, that bit about Patton is brilliant! As an aside, I once saw the V-16 Cadillac that he died in back in 1966 in a museum (now gone) in Natural Bridge, Virginia. At least I think that was the place. They also had the car that F.D.R. was riding in when Giuseppe Zangara shot the mayor of Chicago who was standing on the running board. I wonder where those cars are now? 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:32 PM

To 54light15:  Patton wasn't killed in that '39 Cadillac, but he WAS fatally injured, dying of said injuries several days later.  The car is currently on display in the Patton Armor Museum  at the US Army's Fort Knox tank training center.  I haven't seen it but hope to go someday and shed a tear over it.

I don't know the whereabouts of the Roosevelt attempted assassination car.  However, should you find yourself in the Hyde Park New York area the Roosevelt home historic sight has the '36 Ford equipped with hand controls that FDR drove. I've seen that one.  I've read FDR used to drive like a maniac and I can believe it, you should see the chipped paint on the fenders!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, November 30, 2012 6:01 PM

One other thing:  Pattons jeep "War Eagle" is on display at the US Army Quartermaster Corps Museum in Fort Lee Va., Petersburg area,  I've seen that one.  Very nice!

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Posted by K4sPRR on Saturday, December 01, 2012 7:29 PM

Firelock76

To 54light15:  Patton wasn't killed in that '39 Cadillac, but he WAS fatally injured, dying of said injuries several days later.  The car is currently on display in the Patton Armor Museum  at the US Army's Fort Knox tank training center.  I haven't seen it but hope to go someday and shed a tear over it.

I've been to the museum at Ft. Knox and if your a Patton fan, you'll love it.  Several Patton artifacts.

  My Dad was in the 5th Infantry Division of Patton's 3rd Army in WWII.  He said they cused the man all across Europe, but when it was all said and done they agreed, the SOB was right!  I have the Christmas card Patton gave to each of his troops at the Battle of Bulge in 1944.  For some reason my Dad kept his, its very small, but a great piece of history and Pattons story about the card is classic.  As to the movie you mentioned, my Dad started to sweat when he watched it, George C. Scott did a great job.

  As for Patton, my Dad had a lot of respect for him.  Said he was the only General he'd ever go to into battle with.

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