Several of the topics here have revolved around historic locomotive (narrow gauge and standard gauge) . It seems amazing that these locomotive and equipment are stil doing their jobs after years and years of service and periods of disuse.
While looking around You Tube.com I found a couple of videos that go into detail about the mission of the US Army Railway Operations in Europe during World War I.
This first video is a reflection of how Baldwin Locomotive Products were brought to France in pieces and assembled, as were various kinds of railway cars which arrived in kit form to be built and put into service.
"WW1 - US Military Railroads in Europe - World War One Trains"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvx5zxtIXLE&feature=related
In the first video are mentioned the operation of the 14" Naval gun batteries, and this video show how the battery operated and how dependent they were on the rail service to supply and move them around.
"Navy 14 Inch Railway Guns in France, 191"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7al-ZJmSlM
Ther German's as well utilized the large railway guns, but little seemed to be said about the large calibre guns used by American forces in France at that time.
Popular Science Monthly had an article on the railway mounted 14 inch naval rifles somewhere around 1927 - you can use Google Books to view the issue in question. Accuracy was supposed to be pretty good, and the impacts were devastating.
- Erik
erikem:
The 'naval rifles' and the large caliber railway guns are an interesting area in themselves, but mainly I was interested in the information in the videos, referencing the way that the Allied forces moved into France and set up the various railway Operating Battalions, Regiments and support.
How they that then imported the American-made, to European standards the railway cars, and then the locomotives, in 'kit' form, to be built in France, and operated in the European theater of operations. Some of those locomotives still exist to this date. Preserved and possibly still operational. The video indicated that Baldwin Locomotive was building those engines at an approximate of 300 per month towards the end of the War(?).
The majority of the railway cars were used in Europe for long after the war. In the 1970's I remember that at the Milan (Tn) Army Ammunition Plant they were still using some of those European-styled boxcars on their intra-plant cargo moves. They did not surplus some of them out into the area til the 1980's.
It was a heroic effort that this country made in Europe then, and the Railroad Industry certainly contributed to that build-up. I think it would be safe to say that America left its mark on the French and other European Railways, as a result of WWI and then in WWII as well. My point in bringing it up was to point out to many that we in a lot of cases are not aware of that aspect of our Country's effors, as it gets left out of the History being taught, and seems only to be available to those that get out and dig for it.
In line with that was this Thread from earlier this year:
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/193887/2116648.aspx#2116648
40 hommes et 8 chevaux Box Cars
Sam,
I hear you about stuff getting left out of history. The PopSci article discussed the design, development and logistics as the naval rifles as well as their use. There was a comment about how the locomotive crates made for nice temporary dockside shelter for the crews involved in setting up the rifles and support trains.
The back issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics available on Google books do make for for some interesting reading with respect to history, more in filling in details left out of most history books as opposed to providing a "complete picture".
And of course, some of the last steam locomotives that operated in regular service in each of the Euruopean countries were US-made 2-8-0's and 2-8-2's sent both during WWII and as aid afterward. Some are in excursion service today. They were not the most economical with regard to fuel and water but were generally easier to maintain than the local products.
For a real treat, see if you can find a video called "War Trains", put out by Galloping Pictures. It's a history of American military railroads from the Civil War through World War Two, but a VERY generous portion of the video shows American railroading in France during World War One, from assembling the 2-8-0 mainline locomotives to the narrow gauge locomotives that supplied the front with men and munitions. Utterly fascinating and a bit sad for me, considering all the World War One vets are now gone. It's a bit like looking at ghosts. Also, there's some good footage of the 14" railroads guns being assembled. Did you know they were all manned by US Navy personnel? Also, there was a book published in 1990 by Benchmark Publications called "Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land", a great study of the narrow gauge supply lines. I lucked into mine, but I'm sure there are others out there.
Re: Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land.
My friendly used book dealer found me a pristine copy earlier this year. It was only one of several that were available then.
Fascinating subject! Not only covers the history and front-line geography, but includes plans suitable for model building, for those so inclined. Well worth the money.
Chuck
Chuck;
The following linked video may be of some interest to you, as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3s01i3aa7w
"WW1 Narrow gauge train lines in France -
World War One - Historic Steam Trains"
[EDIT to Add]
"World War I: Battle Of Verdun 1/4"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWJB6Y-3N5o&feature=related
In a Bill Mauldin cartoon, Joe is standing in the doorway of a French boxcar and says to Willie, "They shoulda hired a homme to clean up after them chevaux." Seriously, I'd be interested to find out more about the railways operated supposedly right into the trenches of the First World War, apparently the British had a large network as well as the U.S. I've never seen any pictures of such operations. There are quite a few operating Baldwins in the U.K, the Churnet Valley has an Alco or Baldwin 2-8-0 under restoration I think.
54light15 :
Bill Mauldin was a hero of mine. My dad had several cartoon books, compilations of his cartoons. They meant more to me when I had returned from RVN. Anyway, back on task.
The railways you mentioned are commonly referred to as "Trench Railways". They were used by bothe the Allies and the Germans to feed supplies from the rear stagng areas ( They were fed by the larger railways). (The narrow gauge Terench Railways ran to points on the Trenches to supply food, ammunitions, and fodder for the horses and mules.)
Remember that in WWI the "Front' was pretty much composed of static emplacements and built up trenchlines. The soldiers would periodically make thrusts forward of their positions ( going 'Over The Top') into fire from the facing enemy positions (machine gun, rifle and light motar fire). The heavy artillery was back to the rear where it was supplied by heavy rail. It was hellishly deadly to soldiers who only had their helment and their wits. I digress.
Search WWI Trench Railways for information.
Here's a link: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Trench_railways
And another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_railways
Here's a You Tube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYIj0vxnA5c
"Ride on the Froissy - Dompierre Light Railway " This is a piece of the Trench Railway left over from the Battle of the Somme in WWI
Any you might enjoy this as well.
"Baldwin Class 10-12-D loco #778 on the Froissy - Dompierre Light Railway "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBK4NxBuP9o&feature=related
Loking at all those vintage films from the First World War makes me offer up a silent prayer of thanks for motion pictures and the geniuses that made them possible. What would we give for movies of the Civil War?
Firelock76 Loking at all those vintage films from the First World War makes me offer up a silent prayer of thanks for motion pictures and the geniuses that made them possible. What would we give for movies of the Civil War?
Fortunately, or unfortunately, from the Civil War we have only the glass plate negatives of Matthew Brady and of Alexander Gardner who were authorized to photograph the Union side of the conflict. Brady is the more well known; while Alexander Gardner was considered to be somewhat of a scoundrel. This was due to his having been acused of and caught staging some of his photographs.
Here is a link to a site showing Civil War RR photographs:
http://www.treasurenet.com/cgi-bin/treasure/images.pl/Search?search=%2bSub_Category%3a%22Railroads%22
I noticed that all those locomotives are running on "bio fuel".
creepycrank" ..."I noticed that all those locomotives are running on "bio fuel"
..."I noticed that all those locomotives are running on "bio fuel"
Pine!
[ Even the Blue and Gray were green, sign of the times.]
Well, burning wood wasn't THAT green. Consider the staggering amounts of wood fuel the society of the 19th Century needed to keep running, not just railroads but home heating and cooking, AND industrial purposes like iron and steel production. Thousands of acres of forest were cut down strictly for fuel. Around the Richmond Va. area there are surviving Civil War fortifications running through the woods surrounding the city. I wondered at first why they put the trenches in the woods, then I realised the woods weren't there at the time, what I was looking at was second and third growth forest, the original trees had disappeared into buildings and up the chimneys. Luckily the increasing use of coal as the 19th Century wore on slowed down the de-forestation. Now I'M starting to digress!
Back in 1994 or so, an acquaintence and I went down to Dahlgren Naval Weapons Center, which is on the east end of an old RF&P branchline in Virginia. Long story short: the grounds were littered with gun barrels probably from 8 inches on up and they had on display one of the railway guns, but I don't recall any data about it. Segue forward to Veterans' Day 2011, and my conductor and I made a trip to the Pritzger Military Library in Chicago, where I discovered a book on the German Feldbahnen. It was a very comprehensive volume, but printed auf Deutsch. The Germans used a 600 mm gauge for their operations in both wars, if memory serves. Does anyone know if the line still goes to Dahlgren or the status of the railway gun on display? IIRC, they also had an old GE 45-tonner or two on the property>
uphogger The Germans used a 600 mm gauge for their operations in both wars, if memory serves.>
The Germans used a 600 mm gauge for their operations in both wars, if memory serves.>
I don't think that number's correct. 600 mm equates to 23.6 inches. That would be less than even 2 foot gauge.
Mike
600mm (60cm) was the standard gauge for light railways in Europe - the railways portrayed in Narrow Gauge to No Man's Land were 600mm. This gauge even reached Scandinavia, I rode a 60cm railway in Sweden in 1986.
Sam, you might be interested to know that there are two new anthologies of Bill Mauldin's cartoons, one has all of his military cartoons, the other has his postwar stuff. Try any good comic shop. Anyway, on the subject of 600 mm railways, there is what I can only call a "club layout" in central Germany where there is a 2 km oval of track used to run a collection of 600mm equipment. The story is, a man restored a locomotive and had nowhere to run it so he bought a piece of property and built a line, complete with a yard, workshop and so forth. Plus a pub! I'll try to find out exactly where from the tour company if anyone is interested. They did some fine work and had a pretty large collection of rolling stock.
That light grey 0-8-0 on the Astronomy website is the exact type of loco that was at the club and one was being rebuilt. it' s well worth a visit!
Cool Links; thanks for sharing those as I truly enjoy this stuff!!!!!!!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
I don't know how this slipped my mind, but the Cripple Creek and Victor narrow gauge railroad in Cripple Creek, Co. operates a German 60 centimeter steam locomotive on their tourist line, at least they did the last time I was out there several years ago. I belive it's an industrial locomotive and not a "Feldbahn" type, but it's pretty close it you want to get the idea. Also, there's a fascinating museum in town located in the old Midland Terminal Railroad station. It's a museum of local history, and they have a three-dimensional glass map of one of the gold mines that was done around the turn of the 20th Century. My brother, who's a civil engineer by education and training, was utterly amazed by it, as was I. Well worth a visit before or after you ride the train.
54light15 wrote:.
"...Sam, you might be interested to know that there are two new anthologies of Bill Mauldin's cartoons, one has all of his military cartoons, the other has his postwar stuff..."
Thanks! I'll go looking for it! It is a shame that there seems to be no latter day equivalent for Bill Mauldin, and the stories he told about ordinary combat soldiers.
as to the second part of the post: "...Try any good comic shop. Anyway, on the subject of 600 mm railways, there is what I can only call a "club layout" in central Germany where there is a 2 km oval of track used to run a collection of 600mm equipment.
The story is, a man restored a locomotive and had nowhere to run it so he bought a piece of property and built a line, complete with a yard, workshop and so forth. Plus a pub! I'll try to find out exactly where from the tour company if anyone is interested. They did some fine work and had a pretty large collection of rolling stock...."
and interestingly, I found and posted a YouTube.com video of the Somme Valley 600mm (former military supply railway in France, from WWI). posted elsewhere on this Thread.
And (sheesh) this Wikipedia site: "The Froissy Dompierre Light Railway"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froissy_Dompierre_Light_Railway
Per Samp1943's comment that "it is a shame there seems to be no latter day equivalent for Bill Mauldin..." As an admirer of Sgt. Mauldins work for 40-plus years, let me say this. Bill Mauldin was a genius. HE wouldn't have thought so, but assuredly that's what he was, not just for his "Willie and Joe" cartoons from the war, but for his political cartoons as well. Someone like him only comes along, if we're lucky, maybe once in a century. Think Thomas Nast in the 19th Century.
Secondly, Bill Mauldins brand of sly insubordination just wouldn't be tolerated in todays military. It darn near wasn't tolerated during World War Two, except for the fact he had some VERY high brass like generals Eisenhower and Bradley looking out for him. Ike and Omar knew that the GI's of WW2 were "citizen-soldiers", not professionals, and who really didn't want to be where they were, and Mauldin's cartoons were a good safety valve for their frustrations.
By the way, I read Bill Maudin's "Up Front" when I was in high school and loved it, but I REALLY didn't appreciate it until I spent some time in the military myself. Like I said, the man was a genius.
I've got my dad's copy of "Up Front", plus a well worn copy of "Mud, Mules & Mountains", which was published during the Italian campaign. My dad was an artilleryman in the 45th Division. SOLDIERS magazine did a piece on a REFORGER exercise that Bill Mauldin observed. He wrote and illustrated a companion article in that issue. I still have that somewhere in a box. See if you can also find a copy of "The Brass Ring", one of his last works.
As far as 600mm being too narrow, it's so close to 2-foot gauge that several tourist operations in this country have industrial 0-4-0 locomotives. The other common European narrow gauge was 1000 mm (or meter gauge, if you prefer). When I was on my first tour of Germany back in 1978-80, my girlfriend introduced me to what was left of the Hartsfeld Bahn, which ran from Aalen to Dillingen, IIRC. Will have to do some research on that one. But my point is that it was just one of many meter gauge lines. There was one that was active on my first tour, but when I went back for my second tour in 1984-86, it had been abandoned and torn up. They used to move standard gauge cars on "rollbocks", a narrow gauge chassis that supported the entire standard gauge wagon. Several lines in the former East Germany still exist today, but pretty much all of the West German lines were gone by the time I was there. One exception I rode was the Zugspitzbahn, but then again, it had no competition for its purpose.
Get a copy if you can of Mauldin's postwar memoir, "Back Home." I got the impression that the U.S. was a very angry place after the war and that Joe McCarthy was only going with the flow.
The Harz mountains narrow gauge system is over 100 kms of meter gauge track with lots of steam happening. Mostly 2-10-2Ts built in the 50s and some wonderful 0-4-4-0T Mallets that are 100 years old. If you like steam and narrow gauge, Eastern Germany is the place to be! There's at least 10 lines running today and the Harz hauls standard gauge cars on narrow wagons and the equipment used for this purpose are all almost new and state-of-the-art. What a place!
Thanks for the tip on "Back Home." I shall try to find a copy. And you are absolutely correct about the lines in the Harz Mountains. Unfortunately, the last time I was there, travel in the east was forbidden. Gotta save my money and go back sometime.
Just to give you a taste of what will be waiting for you:
Holy cow! I'll bring the cheese! As for people in Hamburg, I spent my time down south in Schwaebisch Gmuend and Augsburg. We enjoyed what we refered to as Bavarian sunshine.
Bavarian sunshine! Awesome stuff, especially at the Lowenbrau beer hall. I could go for a Mas right now! Sorry to get off topic but beer and steam go together like steam and beer!
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