Don't know, but railroads got engines as needed, and the 9000 series was bought when the Compound Mallets were on the mainlines. When the problems came up with the 9000s with cornering, that is when the challengers came to the UP, followed by the 3900 class, and the 4000 series Big Boys.
So, I don't think that the 4-12-2s were abandoned when the challengers came, but were stored and used as needed.
As far as rigid verses articulated, the articulateds won hands down, granted that the Texas types were really close with t.e. The articulateds win because t.e. goes up w/ weight by nature, and the nonrigid engines had 4 cylinders instead of 2 or 3.
Also, 2-10-4s weren't as flexible as A classes or challengers or Y6bs.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Hi -
Whatever the number of coaches – it sure was brave work ! Yet , all these ‘gym’ work out type of low speed max pull ramp exploits do read somewhat strange to me .
Ok , these locomotives were solidly built if any locomotive ever was . They took up with really hard work and stood up to it . Yet , if I were to have a locomotive ( luckily PKP bureaucracy saved me from my headless attack of attempting to buy one 42 class Decapod shelved in what appeared decently good condition ) and were to make excursion trips , I’d probably get a lot of ‘boos’ for keeping it at a rather leisurely trundling pace on fairly easy throttle and cut-off at decently swift yet not too hasty speed with a concise consist behind tender on rather level track following – for example – a lovely river valley , with a pusher diesel waiting at the bottom of the only ramp in a day’s trip - *ggg* .
Alas , I was not the only one to think along such lines :
When in the summer of 1987 , to join the 150 years celebration of Austrian railways , the newly and completely overhauled Goelsdorf 310.23 four cylinder compound 2-6-4 made its initial trip from Knittelfeld workshop in a mountain valley to Austria’s capital city , Vienna , the trip included travelling the Semmering pass . With his vintage electric coupled to the back end of the train before attacking the long climb , intending to be a good colleague the ‘electric driver’ really pushed the train up the winding curves of the steep grades – so much so to have front buffers of front car pressed to tender buffers – leaving no more than its engine unit for the venerable compound to lift up the pass , still with impressive enough plumes of white steam puffing up from narrow stack . It was only later when on one of the many day trip tours offered during these wonderful weeks of steam # 310.23 came to stretching legs a bit when the compound definitely rose above average Strauss waltz tempo heading a vintage consist at some 65 mph with perfectly smooth running and whispering exhaust .
But that’s another story …
Regards Juniatha
feltonhill Sorry to be so late with this. Out of town the past four days. The video "The Phoenix Engine" covers 614 on B&O and according to both the liner notes and actually counting cars, 614 took 11 cars plus A-tank up 17-mile grade (Hopewell estimate of 1,200 tons) and 22 cars + a-tank up Sand Patch (no estimate of tonnage). A quick calculation indicates that if 17-mile is 2.6%, 22 cars+a-tank (maybe 1,800 tons??) would have a grade resistance alone over 110,000 lbs, well over 614's total low speed TE of 66,450 lbs engine or 78,850 lbs with booster. Drawbar pull would be about 3,000 lbs less at 10-15 mph. This doesn't include curve resistance which can be significant (as you can hear on the YouTube clip). If this is 17-mile grade (2.6%) , 614 isn't t pulling 24-cars. 'Regardless of the numbers, 614 shows amazing tenacity the whole time, particularly on one of the curves, holding the rail at what must be absolutely full throttle while speed drops to what, below 10 mph? In the pacing vids you can see 614 swinging from side to side under the piston thrust. Simply an amazing performance while doing a job for which it wasn't designed.
Sorry to be so late with this. Out of town the past four days.
The video "The Phoenix Engine" covers 614 on B&O and according to both the liner notes and actually counting cars, 614 took 11 cars plus A-tank up 17-mile grade (Hopewell estimate of 1,200 tons) and 22 cars + a-tank up Sand Patch (no estimate of tonnage). A quick calculation indicates that if 17-mile is 2.6%, 22 cars+a-tank (maybe 1,800 tons??) would have a grade resistance alone over 110,000 lbs, well over 614's total low speed TE of 66,450 lbs engine or 78,850 lbs with booster. Drawbar pull would be about 3,000 lbs less at 10-15 mph. This doesn't include curve resistance which can be significant (as you can hear on the YouTube clip). If this is 17-mile grade (2.6%) , 614 isn't t pulling 24-cars.
'Regardless of the numbers, 614 shows amazing tenacity the whole time, particularly on one of the curves, holding the rail at what must be absolutely full throttle while speed drops to what, below 10 mph? In the pacing vids you can see 614 swinging from side to side under the piston thrust. Simply an amazing performance while doing a job for which it wasn't designed.
feltonhill,
You are right, it wasn't 24 cars on the 17 Mile Grade. That was a typo on my part that I didn't even notice until you posted this. I meant to type 14 cars (13 passenger cars + the A tender). That's what I remember the train length being on that trip, but that was 30 years ago, so it very well may have been 11 cars + the A tender for a total of 12 behind the 614.
However, there were multiple trips over Sand Patch, both from Cumberland and Pittsburgh with trains of varying lengths. The shortest was 16 cars + the A tender, the longest was 24 cars + the A tender. With the longest train, the 614 was down to below 10 mph in sections. We calculated that the 614 was putting out between 83,000 lbs and 84,000lbs TE (with booster) with the 24 car + A tender train on Sand Patch.
You are right about the tenacity of the 614 on a hard pull. I really don't remember the 614 slipping once on either the 17 Mile or Sand Patch. The one B&O Grade that got the 614 was when Ross tried to pull 24 cars + A tender up the nasty Streets Run Grade on the W&P Sub out of the Monongahela River Valley in Pittsburgh. Again, no slipping, the 614 simply ran out of pull about 1 mile short of the Whitehall Tunnel.
I suspect the Mechanical Engineers from Lima would be rolling over in their graves if they knew what Ross put the 614 through during these excursions and the ACE tests.
Juniatha "Making a flame for the photographers" - a feat that in the 1970s DB steam fans liked to ask steam crews of oil-fired engines for ; some aquired considerable skills in producing a spectacular effect while others tried and never got much above a plume of smoke . In his painting a friend who has spent lots of miles on oil-fired engines widens on history by having a firewoman make a flame in his own design of a late era Atlantik type locomotive. ( with permission by painter for posting in this forum only )
"Making a flame for the photographers"
- a feat that in the 1970s DB steam fans liked to ask steam crews of oil-fired engines for ; some aquired considerable skills in producing a spectacular effect while others tried and never got much above a plume of smoke .
In his painting a friend who has spent lots of miles on oil-fired engines widens on history by having a firewoman make a flame in his own design of a late era Atlantik type locomotive.
( with permission by painter for posting in this forum only )
Nice..
Some later steamers had overfire openings in the side of the firebox, but my recollections was those were only used on coal burning engines. On an oil burner, those openings probably could spout some serious flame with appropriate manipulation of the firing valve - i.e. shutting it off, then turning it full on.
My only close encounters with an oil burning steamer has been with Ventura County #2 at OERM in Perris.
Film boiling was one of the issues covered in my thermal-hydraulics classes, since the heat production from a fuel rod didn't depend too greatly on that specific rod's temperature, assuming the nearby rods were immersed in water (moderator). In a firebox, the local temperature rise due to film boiling would reduce the radiant or convective heat transfer and possibly drop that low enough to re-establish nucleate boiling. If the firebox wall is hot enough to support film boiling, it is probably weakened enough to be in danger of not supporting full boiler pressure.
- Erik
And wow, that painting of the flaming firebox is something else! Gives a new spin on the term "Hot Blonde"!
Juniatha Hi Firelock >> Oh yeah, except there's no Maalox, Alka-Seltzer, Bromo-Seltzer, Brioschi, Gas-X, ...<< .. or Coca Cola . ... only : why is she holding that Art Nouveau Tiffany glass mobile phone ? I mean , no doubt we liked chattering back then , Coke or not ... = J =
Hi Firelock
>> Oh yeah, except there's no Maalox, Alka-Seltzer, Bromo-Seltzer, Brioschi, Gas-X, ...<<
.. or Coca Cola .
... only : why is she holding that Art Nouveau Tiffany glass mobile phone ?
I mean , no doubt we liked chattering back then , Coke or not ...
= J =
Hi Juniatha! Well you know, back those days Coca-Cola DID have cocaine int it. Maybe she just THINKS it's a mobile phone! "I get no kick from cocaine, mere alchohol doesn't thrill me at all...."
Hi Erik
Off hands - I guess film boiling should be possible - you only have to have the 'right' combination of heat impact per unit of area , low water circulation speed plus 'sufficiently' low boiler pressure . If this should happen it would quickly raise mean wall temperature at that area which would be highly destructive of course . I have wondered more than once about L D Porta's obviously nonchalant approach to firebox heat loads in his super-performing boilers being a back-bone of his light-weight super-output engine concepts made posible with highly efficient draughting , I don't know where and how much if so he accounts for ageing of steel in general and boiler / firebox steel especially under repeating in and out plastic deformation stress . The classic Stephensonian boiler concept can only be pushed so far until things get out of hands - already the most lively steaming of locomotive boilers were much better performing than stationary boilers of power plants as concerns quotient of mass unit of water evaporated per hour by mass unit of construction material .
Regards
Juniatha
Juniatha ( .. I'd say , the effect 'over-firing' had on a steam locomotive was about the same as 'over-dining' has on us - only in scale 5000 to 1 .. )
( .. I'd say , the effect 'over-firing' had on a steam locomotive was about the same as 'over-dining' has on us - only in scale 5000 to 1 .. )
As in jalapenos, habeneros, chili peppers...
I wonder if it would be possible to get the firebox not enough to initiate film boiling on the water side? That is other than allowing the crownsheet to be momentarily uncovered with the resulting drama.
Oh yeah, except there's no Maalox, Alka-Seltzer, Bromo-Seltzer, Brioschi, Gas-X, or Pepto-Bismol made for steam locomotives. Luckily, us humans are much better off!
Thomas 9011 This is not related to the 614 but I have heard the term "Over firing a engine". How does one over fire a steam locomotive and how does this cause damage.
This is not related to the 614 but I have heard the term "Over firing a engine". How does one over fire a steam locomotive and how does this cause damage.
"Over firing an engine." Probably someone on this site with some hands-on experience could explain it better than I can, but to my knowledge "over firing" means adding more fuel to the fire than it can burn efficiently. Ever see photos of films with steam engines pouring out black smoke, the "Burning of Rome" effect as Lucius Beebe used to call it? This was a dead giveaway of over firing. Tons of black smoke was an indication of poor combustion, usually caused by over firing or over fueling.
Of course, there could be mitigating circumstances, such as a load of bad coal or fuel oil, poor locomotive maintanance, or sometimes the fireman just wasn't very good at his job.
Over firing in itself wouldn't cause any damage, at least I don't think so. I did read a story in "Trains" several years ago where an engine crew used coke (the stuff they use to fire steel furnaces) instead of coal in the locomotive and that stuff burned so hot it DID damage the firebox. Wonder how they explained that one to the division superintendant?
edbenton Sorry but this guy has been there for 10 years and was hired there right out of the US Navy what was his job in the Navy Maintainance on the Reactors in the Ohio Class USBN so if he is telling me 1400 Degrees is the temp he sees I will tend to take him at his word. His current job Head of Maintaince at the Plant who did he replace a Retired US Navy Master Chief that was his boss there. He knows what he is talking about on his plant and I do not question him about it.
Sorry but this guy has been there for 10 years and was hired there right out of the US Navy what was his job in the Navy Maintainance on the Reactors in the Ohio Class USBN so if he is telling me 1400 Degrees is the temp he sees I will tend to take him at his word. His current job Head of Maintaince at the Plant who did he replace a Retired US Navy Master Chief that was his boss there. He knows what he is talking about on his plant and I do not question him about it.
Ed,
The temperature of saturated steam at 1000psia is 544F. 1000 psi is pretty much the standard steam pressure from a US nuclear power plant.The only light water plants to use superheated steam were the B&W plants and the steam was about 590F at ~980psi. On a pressurized water reactor, the primary coolant loop is pressurized to 2200 psi, where the boiling point is just under 650F and VERY BAD THINGS will happen if the primary coolant temperature is allowed to rise to the boiling point (typical max operating temperature is around 620F).
Several of my classmates at Cal's Department of Nuclear Engineering were former nuclear navy guys and not one of them said anything about the steam conditions as stated in the textbooks being wrong. One mentioned that the folks who designed the turbines for nuclear applications had to go back a few decades to relearn how to deal with saturated steam.
There were a handful of plants built using 1000-1200F steam, notably the high temperature gas cooled reactors built by General Atomics (Peach Bottom and Ft St Vrain), both plants have been shut down for decades. The other plants were small liquid metal cooled reactors - it was thought that the larger plants could attain 44% thermal efficiency, but problems with the swelling of the cladding forced a reduction in coolant temperature with consequent reduction in efficiency.
Thomas,
Ed is talking about the exhaust temperatures on a turbo-diesel, which are extremely high. But you are right, the cooling and lubricating systems keep the overall engine temperature down, or as you say, the resulting temperature to the metal components would be catastrophic to engine life. Again, as far as the 614 goes, Ross Rowland told me himself that the 614's steam temperature was causing the lubricating oil to break down and become carbonized, thus the blue smoke and resulting valve/cylinder damage.
In any event, the point of my post was to confirm Junitha's understanding that the 614 was run way outside of its initial design intent. The 614 was designed to be a state of the art (for 1948), high speed, high horsepower passenger engine, not to slug 5000 ton coal trains around, and not to pull 24 -26 loaded passenger cars up the like of the Sand Patch and 17 Mile grades unassisted. It accomplished that, but it was like using a Ferrari to tow a heavy trailer around, when a pickup truck would have been a better choice.
I used to be a diesel mechanic contractor for General dynamics, working for the US Army a few years ago and I met my fair share of engineers and designers of diesel engines. One such engineer told me that the cylinder head temperature for a diesel engine would rarely reach over 280 degrees. He said the cooling system worked so well that it would rarely if ever go over that temperature. That is probably why on all your temperature gauges around 260 is usually the maximum number printed on the gauge.
I also spent a great deal of time as a welder and a fabricator and I can tell you that heating cast iron above 1400 degrees is dangerous because unlike steel, cast iron is not flexible and will crack if it is not heated uniformly and cooled down uniformly. Over 1400 degrees is also hot enough to turn steel cherry red and more then enough to deform or bend steel.
I find it hard to believe any type of engine would be putting out 1400 degrees regardless if it is a nuclear fuel reactor or a turbo charger. I certainly don't believe it would be possible in a motor as the aluminum pistons would start to melt at 1220 degrees. The cast iron headers also could not take that abuse and would crack. I know there is videos of engines running on dynamos with the headers running red hot. But headers are only 1/16" to 1/8" of a inch thick and you can get the same result putting a pipe in a fireplace for a half an hour at 600 degrees.
I am also puzzled by the statement that this blue smoke is coming from the valve cylinders. If the valve cylinder in enclosed, along with the lubrication, and if it was burning up, it would be going straight out the smoke stack. The only exception I could see to this scenario is if the packing for the valves and cylinders was leaking and the smoke along with the steam was escaping through the valve and piston rods.
edbenton By 1980 if they had wanted they could have gotten a handle on the lube issues on Superheated Steam. Sorry but with all the engines that run Turbochargers that the temp of the Exhaust Turbines is well over at the time 1000 Degrees and then now they are hitting 1400-1600 just to make the Modern Emmisons standards of the EPA here in the States. Yep you heard me right a Modern Turbocharged Diesel engine on an OTR Truck the Exhaust temp will be over 1400 Degrees leaving the Cylinders and it is nothing for the companies to go 100K miles before changing the Oil on those engines. The modern Core of a 777 Engine is 2200 Degrees and it is lubed up by High Temp oils. Trust me they can find the additives needed to do it. I have a classmate that is at the Local Nuke plant and their Steam Turbines are at around 1200 Degrees for Years at a time as this place hardly Scrams it seems. Last time it shut down was 2 years ago to REFUEL. Well they are always pushing 1400 degrees in a wet enviroment with no bearing issues.
By 1980 if they had wanted they could have gotten a handle on the lube issues on Superheated Steam. Sorry but with all the engines that run Turbochargers that the temp of the Exhaust Turbines is well over at the time 1000 Degrees and then now they are hitting 1400-1600 just to make the Modern Emmisons standards of the EPA here in the States. Yep you heard me right a Modern Turbocharged Diesel engine on an OTR Truck the Exhaust temp will be over 1400 Degrees leaving the Cylinders and it is nothing for the companies to go 100K miles before changing the Oil on those engines. The modern Core of a 777 Engine is 2200 Degrees and it is lubed up by High Temp oils. Trust me they can find the additives needed to do it. I have a classmate that is at the Local Nuke plant and their Steam Turbines are at around 1200 Degrees for Years at a time as this place hardly Scrams it seems. Last time it shut down was 2 years ago to REFUEL. Well they are always pushing 1400 degrees in a wet enviroment with no bearing issues.
Ed, I hear what you are saying about the the exaust temperatures in modern turbo-diesels. The high combustion temperature is the primary reason for their extremely high thermal efficiency. But, if you look at the lubrication system in a modern diesel, the high heat is kept away from the lubricants as much as possible to avoid thermal breakdown. That is not true in the design of a traditional steam engine, and I don't know if it would be even possible to engineer such a system based on the valves and cylinders being in constant contact with superheated steam. Dry, superheated steam has no lubricating properties, and is in fact quite abrassive, causing cutting and scoring of non-lubricated steel. Modern steam design such as high pressure coal and nuclear powerplants use turbines to convert the energy of the steam into mechanical or electrical energy. The basic design of a turbine allows high temperatures and at the same time allows the bearing surfaces to remain relative cool with a proper lubricating design.
Take it from this old Marine, trust what those Navy nuke guys tell you. People think flight school is the toughest school the Navy has. It's not. Nuke school is. After nearly 60 years of nuclear propulsion the Navy has never had a Three Mile Island or a Chernobyl or similar disaster. Not one. Those guys more than know what they're doing.
edbentonI have a classmate that is at the Local Nuke plant and their Steam Turbines are at around 1200 Degrees for Years at a time as this place hardly Scrams it seems. Last time it shut down was 2 years ago to REFUEL. Well they are always pushing 1400 degrees in a wet enviroment with no bearing issues.
The nuke's currently running in the US are all light water reactors, producing saturated steam at 1,000psig (about 550F).
- Erik MSNE '78 at UCB
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Hi all
Just to make sure : my writing "From the video it might also have been paint oxidizing into carbonized form , however that should have been but a matter of some miles . " did NOT mean to say I thought it WAS paint . It could have been paint if not it was continuing at much the same rate over an extended distance . Paint usually got burnt at unprotected joints of live steam pipes to cylinders in DB steam locos having high superheating temps : standard engines at nominal ( rather decent ) steaming rates regularly ran at ~ 390°C ( 734°F ) , reaching some 410 - 420°C ( 770 - 788°F ) at mildly forced steaming rates while DB combustion chamber re-boilered engines reached 450 - 480°C ( 842 - 896°F ) as originally rebuilt , engines featuring 480 °C subsequently being cut down to some 440°C ( 824°F ) . That asked for special high quality oil for cylinders however by and large it proved of no problem as long as proper oil was supplied . While it was ok on DB , Eastern DR did experience trouble with 01.5 Pacifics also reaching some 420 - 430°C ( 788 - 806°F ) as oil-fired engines fully applied their ~ 3000 ihp potential . People who have seen DR 01.5 Pacifics in Hamburg-Altona shed ( DB ) , say DR crews from Magdeburg or ( East- ) Berlin picked up DB cylinder oil at the shed for their engines to avoid trouble . Although this was highly unofficial it was both generously supplied by DB staff and seen ( or overlooked ) with a twinkling eye by Eastern Reichsbahn officials .
I wonder oil heat resistance still was an issue in the 1980s with # 614 ...
If cylinder oil gets burnt the engine quickly starts to suffer and this will result in both valve and piston rings wearing quickly , consequently also valve liners and cylinder surface will be roughened by freezing up . After all , this means metallic surface wearing on metallic surface without an effective oil film destroying metallurgic surface structure and finish . This is about the worst of several conditions of lacking oil film ; more often it was oil film washed off by water carry over or priming . While a sudden slip can produce a heavy surge of water threatening to blow a cylinder cover or bending a main rod , even a lighter water carry over can wash oil off valve liners and cylinder surfaces , yet momentarily providing an incomplete substitute and at least avoiding excessive temperatures on these surfaces so that with some luck oil film can be re-established by feeding oil at increased rate for some time and things may be fine again . In a condition causing overheating of these surfaces more oil will only result in more carbonization finally jamming valve and piston rings and causing even more rapid and more uneven wear . If an engine had suffered this effect , even normalizing lubrication conditions after that run will not help because grooves of rings had to be cleaned of oil-carbon and likely rings will show heavy and unround wear pattern , let alone damaged surface conditions . I was told , in the final years of steam DB found steam locomotives could struggle through that and 'self-heal' by subsequent wear re-establishing more-or-less round condition and so-so surfaces of rings . Yet my engineering sense tells me , if at all , that could only work out by allowing heavy steam leakage losses during the 'self-healing' and would never come back to fully sound conditions - in other words it was only possible with excessive steaming making up for high cylinder steam consumption rates for given output - if at all full engine output was still attainable - I have my doubts about it , although steam leakage past rings intriguingly has a positive effect on draughting since there is more steam volume of also higher specific heat content through blast nozzle ( higher spec heat content since the process of leakage is a pressure reduction without work delivered and thus rises temperature of leaked steam mixing with regularly exhausted steam ) . Mind , that beyond a certain severeness of scarring or serration of rings sealing surface , high temperature steam escaping must have produced a violent high velocity stream that might as well cut further into metal thus enlarging gap . In that case no amount of extra oiling could rebuild an oil film since it was constantly being blown off , friction produces spots of overheating , contorting rings - things will only get worse the longer this engine is continued running .
Valve and piston ring lubrication was one of several design issues never adequately solved in steam locomotive development - likewise was design of these rings themselves . That wanting state had been one of several points improved in 3450 Red Devil - yet again Wardale by himself writes it was kind of a prototype design - there was no chance to develop it into full series standard level , he clearly states there was no reason why it could not have been fully developed if there had been an interest in doing so .
Edbenton,
Well – yes and no . It’s not so much the temperature of the media passing through but really bearing surface temperature – which can be kept well below temp of media by suiting design minimizing heat load and maximizing heat discharge and by lubricant circulation , i e lubricant in a pressurized cycle is only exposed to heat a short time while flowing through bearing , taking up heat load and being re-cooled before re-entering . Another parameter is heat energy and thermal conductivity of work media – both of which are high per mass unit in superheated steam as compared to combustion gasses ; further , absolute mass of media passed through cylinders was high in steam locomotives – mind thermal efficiency of an average 300 psi / 800°F simple expansion two cylinder engine unit of a locomotive was only 12 % in the more average to 14 % in the better engines , with a thermo-dynamic efficiency typically ranging at some 67 – 75 % in the more average and in the best of realized engines ( 75 – 85 % in decently good – very good compound engines ) – all that provided a high heat load per unit of lubricated surface area of liners and cylinder walls swept by rings . At the same time , steam locomotive cylinder never had a lubricant circulation but just worked on – sorry – primitive add & consume lubrication where but a minimum of lubricant is being fed ( or else consumption would become fantastic ) and consequently lubricant cannot take up heat to cool surfaces . In contrast , pistons of diesel engines use excess oiling to cylinder walls for cooling with piston rings painstakingly designed to wipe off all but a minimum needed to maintain oil film this again so tightly hugging cylinder wall that its temperature is little higher than actual wall temp so that practically no oil gets burned by fuel combustion process . On the other hand this delicate oil film may get washed off with cold start or much worse with cranking a gasoline engine , pumping gas with lacking ignition – this sort of thing can quickly age an engine more severely than a couple of thousand miles at high speed on the highway .
Still , I agree with you : with modern high temperature grades of oils , let alone modern solid state non-oil lubricants , there should be no problem .. other than costs .
edited and last paragraph added
Boy to think I routinely pushed my Turbo to 1200-1400 Degrees in the 90's and how did I cool it simple Motor Oil and AIR. Yeah there was that one time I had a turbine fail at speed climbing I-70 West in Colorado out of Denver just before the Ike Tunnel and ended up with a hole in the hood of the truck big enough that well lets just say the firework display was IMPRESSIVE. If it can be built it can be cooled hell if they can cool a Jet engine with oil and grease they can cool a steam engine also with the same stuff. 820 is nothing compared to the 1500-3000 that the Steel industry machinces work with DAILY for 24/7/365 cause if they break down the mill shuts down. Or the Glass industry at 2700+ at the hot side where if that breaks your going to burn down your whole plant.
The plume of blue smoke coming off the 614 is not from paint or grease. It is the 614's extremely high operating steam temperature burning up the lubricants and causing heavy damage to the valves and cylinders. Ross told me personally that is what happened, and it was a big concern of his when it was decided to use the 614 for the Chessie Safety Express excursion program, especially on the severe B&O grades.
The Lima J3a boiler design not only produces a high volume of steam, but Superheats the steam to well over 800 degrees F. I believe the highest steam temperature recorded on the 614 was 820 degrees F. When the valves and cylinders are exposed to steam that hot for extended periods of time, such as on a long, hard pull, bad things begin to happen to the lubricants. Ross actually looked into using custom high temp synthetic lubricants on the 614, but the cost would have be unbelievable. The ability of the 614's boiler to produce vast volumes of steam, along with it's ability to transfer an enormous amount of heat into the steam is what gives the 614 the ability to perform feats that few 4-8-4s would even attempt. That same feature is also it's Achilles Heel if it is not constantly maintained to a high level.
That is interesting that you brought up the valve oil burning in that video. I bought several large photographs of the Big boys and Challengers running through Wyoming last year at a train show and saw a old friend who used to be a fireman on the Union pacific Challengers. I was asking him to give me some photo locations as the photos didn't have any listed. He knew all the locations and he could tell if a steam engine was really working by the smoke coming off of the valve cylinder in the photos.
I will agree with Juniatha that the smoke is likely smoking paint in the case of the 614. in other cases I believe it is probably a combination of grease thrown from the side rods and leaking lubrication lines at the valves and cylinders.
I read some news a while back regarding the Georgetown loop railroad and their C&S steam locomotive 2-8-0 #9. Apparently the new operators didn't have much experience with steam locomotives including the basic operation of how one works, and knowingly ran the locomotive with no cylinder or valve lubrication. Needless to say it wasn't long before the piston rings were burned up and the locomotive would hardly move under it's own power since steam was pushing on both ends of the cylinder. Over $200,000 for a overhaul and the locomotive didn't last but one season and is now condemned and sold for display. You can read about the fiasco here... http://georgetownloop.com/#7
Paul Milenkovic Ah, David Wardale, "The Red Devil and other Tales of the Age of Steam." Would that a person who did not have that book be able to read it. I have my name and e-mail to the fine folks in the United Kingdom who promise to make another printing of it . . . some day.
Ah, David Wardale, "The Red Devil and other Tales of the Age of Steam." Would that a person who did not have that book be able to read it. I have my name and e-mail to the fine folks in the United Kingdom who promise to make another printing of it . . . some day.
I'd never heard of "The Red Devil" until Juniatha mentioned it, now I'm looking. What I do is hit the train shows, antique shows and flea markets and keep my fingers crossed. I've gotten lucky in the past ( I found a copy of Lucius Beebe's "Mixed Train Daily" , the original, not a reprint, at a flea market) and may do so again. Used book dealers are a good source, but from what they tell me rail-themed books fly out the door almost as soon as they get them. Like so many other areas of collecting you've got to get out there, but then, the "hunt" is part of the fun!
Thanks GP-40, that's a very interesting video. I rode behind 614 back in the 90's when it hauled excursions in partnership with New Jersey Transit, Hoboken to Port Jervis, NY. I got some good views of the 614 and bought the souvenir video, but I don't remember seeing steam escaping from the cylinder housings like on your video. However, the trip I took the second year 614 DID have a breakdown due to a piston ring failure, so who knows? The ring failed just short of Moodna Viaduct, Jersey Transit protection power had to take us the rest of the way.
By the way, I'm not sure of what to make of Ross Rowland. It seems like those who've dealt with him in the past concerning his excursions don't seem to want to deal with him again. Is he a bit of a yahoo, a cowboy, a bit reckless? No one talks about it much. Anyone know?
I like Junatha's "thinking steam engine" scenario. "I THINK I can, but NO I WON"T! SO THERE!"
Hi SD40-2
Interesting and rational comments – seems like with your mentioned improvements >> coming down the pike in a few years with diesel-electric technology y<< the case would have been more questionable , yet it always was one dependant on volatile fuel costs coal against diesel and these relations appear to have been floating sand banks in a waterway for most of the times .
614 suffering on steep grade ( btw would you let me know the total train mass and actual grades and their respective lengths ? that would be interesting )the speed is much the pace 01 / 01.5 / 01.10 Pacifics usually settle to on grades like 1.5 ... 2.0 percent ; there is an exceptionally steep grade in the Frankenwald the Hof basd 01s had to pass both ways until the end of their working life , it was fittingly called 'Schiefe Ebene' or simply 'the Incline' in a typical Bavarian trist of language since 'schief' means inclined leaning slanting or sloping and ‘Ebene’ means level plain – which clearly it wasn’t since it was a ‘tilted plain’ so to speak . On this climb an 01 usually settled to some ~30 mph , without being exceedingly pressed . There are some quite impressive sound recordings taken at the crossing road bridge at the top of the grade where the grade began to level off and engines would engage in a fierce acceleration – depending on will and skill of fireman and driver – storming past below the bridge , all steam power shouting triumphantly .
. As for mean temperature of cylinder walls rising in # 614 it seemed positively high enough to fully avoid condensation during expansion and exhaust and may have evaporated sprays from priming if so. However if cylinder oil used wasn’t up to it – squearckx !
From the video it might also have been paint oxidizing into carbonized form ., however that should have been but a matter of some miles . Many photos of 01.10 three cylinder Pacifics show paint completely burnt from live steam pipe / cylinder connections , the parts being all light brown from corrosion .Maybe they didn’t dare to stop and risk stalling when trying to restart ..?
I have a recording of a Pennsy K-4s slipping on HorseShoe Curve in the middle of a brave ascent , then gripping and continuing with a squeal by to and back stroke of one piston – obviously a consequence of oil film washed off by water carried over during wheel spin – it’s heart-rending to listen to …
An electronically self-protecting diesel would just ease up, engine idling out “Sorry man , I see your case , yet : no oil – no service !”Steam stolidly struggled on until the engine consumed herself . What about installing and linking up some viciously-clever electronic nerves in a vintage steamer :“Sorry man , I see your point , yet I’ve gotten wise and so : f--- U (*) , I quit !”
*gee*
(*) says the steamer , not me – whaddaya think !?
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