Thanks. Appreciated. Interestingly enough, I had blocked the incident out of my mind (the newsreel seen in Concord was trauma enough for a seven-year-old) and did not think through the whole experience until sometime after I moved to Jerusalem and have a number of friends who are children of Holocaust survivors.
Janti and his mother Bell were survived by Janti's brother, older by two years, Danny, who teaches law at Cambridge U, England, and Bell's husband, their father, Ed Wilkes, who was Pediatrician, now deceased. My Dad and Ed were both physicians and good friends. Dad advised Ed and his family not to take their usual Scottish vacation. Before that summer Mom, Dad and I would visit Ed. Bell, Danny, and Janti at their Sunnyside, Queens, home. Up to the summer of 1936, my age four, we would take the 86th Street crosstown streetcar to the 90th Street East River Ferry and then walk or use a bus to the Wilkes home. I remember being very upset when we had to take a bus instead of streetcar, with the 86th St. Crosstown being the very last of the GM-owned Green Lines routes to be converted. The Ferry stopped running when the Triboro Bridge opened, and then we used the subway system. Danny and I remained friends, and I visited him at Princeton and he visited me at MIT, but we never ever discussed the tragedy. Not only the loss of his mother and brother, but what an exprience it must have been to be in the Atlantic in a lifeboat for many hours until rescued. I've written Danny but he does not reply to my letters, and I am not assured that he receives them. When Danny started studying for his Bar Mitzvah with our Aunt Leah, my Dad and his sister, Aunt Leah, decided Danny's progress would be greater if two youngsters started studying together. So, being two years younger when starting, I had an advantage. Studying with my Aunt, and this continued for a time after my own Bar Mitzvah, meant riding the Broadway streetcar each way (Third Avenue Railways did not convert to buses until after WWII), so I looked forward to my lessons.
Turning back to railroading. The New England trains could keep pretty close to schedule becuase the network was much denser than elsewhere in the USA. Between NY and Boston the New Haven had several options on routing traffic. In addition to the Shore LIne, there was the old White Train direct line from New Haven through Willlamantic and Blackstone. Or it could go up on the Central's Harlem Division and then east on the Maybrook line. Or from New Haven to Hartford and then east through Wiilamantic. Or on the Shore Line to Bridgeport and up to Watgerbury and then to Willamantic.
Between NY and Montreal, there was, of course, the CV ship to New London and then CV-CN rail. The NYC to Troy or Schenectidy and then the D&H and CP. Or to Troy and then the Rutland and CN. The New Haven to Springfield, B&M to White River Jc., then the CV and CN. Or similarly but B&M to Wells River Jc. and then the CP. Or the New Haven to New London and then the CV and CN. Or the NYC Harlem Div via Pittsfield to North Adams and then the B&M to connect either with the CV-CN route at White River Jc. or the CP at Wells River Jc.
The B&M had most of two routes between Boston and Portland still in place, one via Haverill and one via Lynn, Salem, and Portsmouth. I once ran a freight on the latter (Newburyport to Salem or Lynn, GP-7, modified, 1567 or 1568) when working on my MIT SB-EE thesis and a dollar a year employee with the B&M under Ernie Bloss's direction..
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To daveklepper: It's taken a few days to figure out what I wanted to say. I've read of the sinking of the "Athenia" within a few hours of the opening of WW2. I knew 118 people died in the sinking, including 22 Americans, but I've never "met" anyone with a direct connection to the tragedy. Please accept my condolances on the loss of your cousin, even if it's 70 years after the fact.
In addition to trips southward to visit sisters and their families, and other relatives, each summer meant a trip to New Hampshire for my stay at Camp Wah-kee-nah. My first visit was before I became a camper, and was at the age of five, in 1937. My then 18-year -old sister Gertrude was a Junior Counselor at the sister camp, Wi-ko-su-tah, and my recently deseased cousin Lester, a camper at Wahkeenah. We took the overnight boat to Boston, with dinner on board, a cab to North Station, and the Boston and Maine to Plymouth, where we were met and driven to the camps. I recall the return train trip sitting in the rear of the last open-platform coach, and being upset when somewhere along the way, a head-end car of some type was attached to the rear and blocked by wonderful view out a window to the side of the bulkhead door. When I was six, I began my seven year run as a camper at that camp, meeting campers and counselors at an appropriate sign in the Grand Central Terminal concourse, and then boarding our special 12-and-1 Pullmans. I had a lower birth and remember awakening to find we were moving in the opposite direction. The two sleepers for my camp and the two for the sister camp were attached with the regular Concord sleeper to the State of Maine, and the Concord sleeper always reversed direction at Ayer or Lowell when picked up by a Boston - Concord train. Both camps used chartered buses from Concord, even though train service to Plymouth was available and closer to the camps at Newfound Lake near Hebron, NH. The return from camp was the reverse. This was the pattern through the summer of 1943. However, the return at the end of the summer of 1939 was different. I won't discuss the traumer, which affected me seriously until recently in connection with the outbreak of war, the sinking of the boat Atrhena by a German submarine, and the loss of my very best friend, my cousnin Bell's son Janti, my vitual twin. But my sister took ill, was in a Franklin, NH hospital, and my parents came to be with her. So I was driven by a counselor, a local New Hampshire native, to be with them. For two weeks I amused myself by exploring Franklin and watching B&M trains at the Franklin station. Then with my sister going back to U of Michigan in Ann Arbor, my parents and I took a B&M local to Concord, had dinner in a Chinese restaurant, watched a movie with the newsreels of the German invasion of Poland and the construction of the Warsaw Ghetto walls, and then boarded the regular Concord - Grand Central Terminal Pullman, with me in an upper birth. The news of the Athena tragedy awaited us at our Manhattan home. In 1944, Pullmans for camp specials were no longer available, so the round-trip to Concord was in regular coaches on the Day Express. On the return the special coach where I was assigned was on the rear, and I remember seeing a Coffeen feedwater heater B&M Birkshire in Ayer or Lowell, with a long freight train, and seeing several Boston and Albany Hudsons in Worcester. The counselors did not mind my riding the rear platform, and the trainmen didn't mind either. The coaches were regular non-airconditioned New Haven cars, with light grey interiors and thin blue and red stripes at the bottom of the cleristory, just above the junction with the side portions of the ceiling. In 1945, the camp was no longer at Hebron on Newfound Lake, but near Center Barnstead. Regular trips to the dentist in Concord in gave me four opportunities, missing the first of five Concord visits, to ride the Suncook Valley mixed to Pittsfield in returning to camp. This line had one switchback, meaning the 2-6-0 or 4-6-0 ran in reverse for part of the trip in both directions. The trip to camp that summer was not on the Day Express as in the previous year, but in special cars to Boston, then Boston Elevated with change a Summer-Winter-Washington St. (now Dowtown Crossing) to the Washington Street Tunnel to North Staiton, and then special cars on the Alouette to Concord, with a CP 4-6-2 up front and a parlor-observation at the rear which we of course could not use. The New Haven had a Pacific I-4 on the head end from New Haven to Boston, and I don't remember which of the EP-2 - EP- 4 electrics pulled us from Grand Central. The return that summer was via Concord Junction, with a B&M 2-6-0 and a train of ex-PRR P-54 coaches with owl windows in the end between Concord and Clairmont Jc., then a short wait for the southbound Day White Moutains Express from Berlin, NH, and the usual plane Jain New Haven coaches for a through ride to Grand Central. I remember seeing the trolley wire around Clairmont or Clarmont J., and again at Springfield Jc., wher we were met by two of Sprinfield Terminal's combine interurban cars, an electric operation I never did get a chance to ride.
The New England railroads were not as overloaded as lines to the south of Washington, because there was no choke point like the Potomac River Bridge. So trains ran reasonably close to schedule. I am pretty sure I saw at least one New Haven frieght with an Alco DL-109 two-unit diesel as power, but I am not certain when or where.
I second what Mikec6201 said! Dave, keep telling us "like it was"! Those of us who missed the steam era and the great days of the passenger train will always want to hear from those who were there. And Mike, as a student of history my whole life I won't say a lot of it's an outright lie, but a lot of it has been definately left out. I'll tell you, I heard stories from some Pacific Theater vet's that would make your blood run cold, things that never made it into the books and never will. But that's a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
Thank you Dave soo much for the history lesson.Anytime I have a chance to read personal accounts of things people actually experienced I never pass it up ! I really wish that more men from your generation would write these kind of things down more often. If I have learned one thing from my bible teacher it is this, much of what is written as history is not the complete truth. There is always more to the story. It seems that what is being taught in our schools is a watered down version of history, if not in some cases an outright lie. ....Mike
I can clear one matter up quickly. The only passenger trains that changed power at Pot Yard would have been specials and special sections that did not board or discharge passengers at Washington Union. Because the electrification to Pot did not run south of Washington Union. The electrification extended into the tunnel only as far as required for the GG-1's to run around the southbound train. The electrification was only via the freight line that bypassed Washington Union Station. I doubt that very many special pasenger trains did this, since Pot Yard was even busier than Washington Union if that is possible.
Don't worry Dave, I'LL not critisise your memory or your accuracy. You were there Brother, I wasn't! I'm sure we'd like to hear more from you!
blue streak 1Clearances from CP Virginia to WASH station should have been no problem as superliner equipped Cardinals have operated now thru the tunnel?
blue streak 1 The use of steam in and out of WASH may be complicated by several factors. Some one with unlimited resources needs to verify these items. 1. I seem to remember seeing a pre AMTRAK RR map of DC showing the track from CP Virginia ( Where the current CSX track bears into Virginia ave tunnel) - Wash Union Station as owned by SOU RR??. The map also showed some track from POT yard across Long Bridge as owned by SOU and PRR??? By the way Long Bridge was a draw (Swing?) thru FDR so he could cruise the Potamac. The Southern had trackage rights over the RF&P from about AF Tower (south of the Alexandria station) to the junction with the PRR north of the Alexandria station (I, at the moment, do not remember just where) and thence over the PRR into Washington Union Station. The map is in error, as the PRR owned the track, both through Union Station and the freight line. 6. Did SOU sell their CP Virginia - WASH U Staion track to AMTRAK and when??? See above. 9. Could it be that all Florida trains during steam years changed to GG-1s at POT and proceed to WASH Union?? If so CAT would have been installed CP Virginia to WASH?? The PRR had catenary into Potomac Yard so it did not have to change engines to move freight into/out of the yard. 10. Clearances from CP Virginia to WASH station should have been no problem as superliner equipped Cardinals have operated now thru the tunnel?? Off hand, I do not remember that the Cardinal was ever equipped with Superliners; when we rode it last year and the year before, the equipment was single level (and my wife liked the bedrooms better than she liked the bedrooms of the Superliners). I understand that it is possible to move dome cars through the tunnel if the move is made carefully.
The use of steam in and out of WASH may be complicated by several factors. Some one with unlimited resources needs to verify these items.
1. I seem to remember seeing a pre AMTRAK RR map of DC showing the track from CP Virginia ( Where the current CSX track bears into Virginia ave tunnel) - Wash Union Station as owned by SOU RR??. The map also showed some track from POT yard across Long Bridge as owned by SOU and PRR??? By the way Long Bridge was a draw (Swing?) thru FDR so he could cruise the Potamac.
The Southern had trackage rights over the RF&P from about AF Tower (south of the Alexandria station) to the junction with the PRR north of the Alexandria station (I, at the moment, do not remember just where) and thence over the PRR into Washington Union Station. The map is in error, as the PRR owned the track, both through Union Station and the freight line.
6. Did SOU sell their CP Virginia - WASH U Staion track to AMTRAK and when???
See above.
9. Could it be that all Florida trains during steam years changed to GG-1s at POT and proceed to WASH Union?? If so CAT would have been installed CP Virginia to WASH??
The PRR had catenary into Potomac Yard so it did not have to change engines to move freight into/out of the yard.
10. Clearances from CP Virginia to WASH station should have been no problem as superliner equipped Cardinals have operated now thru the tunnel??
Off hand, I do not remember that the Cardinal was ever equipped with Superliners; when we rode it last year and the year before, the equipment was single level (and my wife liked the bedrooms better than she liked the bedrooms of the Superliners). I understand that it is possible to move dome cars through the tunnel if the move is made carefully.
Johnny
http://www.zazzle.com/is_your_trip_necessary_ww2_poster-228849834232605756
Looks like Dave wasn't really on the team.
I did not say I don't remember diesels on those trains. First, I made it clear that all southbound Southerner, Champion, and Silver Meteor trains had diesels on the point when I rode them southbound. I said that twice (at the most, possibly my memory is not that perfect and it was only once) as an exception, the diesel came off at Acca yard and was replaced by a 4-8-4, northbound. The Everglades, Hvanna Special, Palmland, and Sunland were the trains I rode regularly using steam on the RF&P. I am sure this was mostly 4-8-4's but a Pacific may have been used occasionally. I am pretty sure the Blue and Grey used steam, since RF&P had no passenger diesels of its own during WWII, possibly except for a rare occasion to place an SAL or ACL diesel at Ivy City because its presence was required there. But the Orange Blossom Special, Florida Special (did not ride these trains, winter and all Pullman only) Champion, Silver Meteor, Southerner, and Tennesean, regulary ran diesels in and out of Washington Union, and the diesels could be seen at Ivy City between runs.
Please read what I wrote accurately before criticizing my accuracy. Thanks. Or, how could I have made the point more clear?
I did get to ride the Florida Special much later in life. Twice, I think. But the Orange Blossom Special didn't last very long in the postWWII days.
I did once see the Orange Blossom Special pulling into Main Street Station, Richmond, southbound, with its multi-unit diesel consist as I was leaving on a C&O train for Charlottesville. I knew which train it was because of its all-Pullman consist.
Well. hit the book concerning the RF&P, and without turning this into a dissertation, yes, the RF&P was a high speed road beginning with the years after the Civil War. The steam engines puchased all were dual-purpose, at home either on passenger or freight. Being a single track, then double track line on a VERY busy corridor the trains had to be kept moving. Double heading usually wasn't needed as the consist were tailored to the power.
As far as penetration into Washington, I couldn't find anything about steam engines being prohibited. The only RF&P engines that couldn't get into DC were the first batch of 4-8-4's , the "Generals". They were too heavy for the Long Bridge over the Potomac, and were too wide for the First Street tunnel, so, they were used on freight service only and stopped their northbound trips at Potomac Yard. The second and third batch of 4-8-4's, the "Governors" and "Statesmen" were roughly 30 tons lighter than the first so had no weight or clearance problems. The Long Bridge, by the way, was owned by the Pennsy, other roads like the RF&P and the Southern had trackage rights over it. The Pennsy DID electrify trackage over the bridge in into Potomac Yard in 1935 so they could run their own engines there.
Diesels in and out of DC? Well, the Seaboard starting in 1938 used diesels on the "Orange Blossom Special", followed by the "Silver Meteor". The ACL folowed suit soon afterward on some of their name trains. These trains ran into DC on the RF&P crewed by RF&P personnel. If DaveK doesn't remember diesels on the trains, well, maybe he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Diesels do break down from time to time!
Washington Union Station was jointly owned, at it's opening anyway, by several roads, the PRR, the RF&P, the C&O, and the Southern.
Hope I hit all the high points. The info is from William E. Griffin's "Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac, the Capital Cities Route" published in 1994 by TLC Publishing. (Holy smoke, have I had it THAT long?) A good book and entertaining read.
Prince's RF&P book says the initial batch of 4-8-4's could have been modified to fit the tunnel-- don't think he says they ever were. The bridge was Cooper E-60 in 1937, and the later RF&P 4-8-4s stayed within that restriction, but in 1942 they (PRR?) strengthened the bridge anyway.
blue streak 1 By the way Long Bridge was a draw (Swing?) thru FDR so he could cruise the Potamac.
By the way Long Bridge was a draw (Swing?) thru FDR so he could cruise the Potamac.
That would be the one completed August 25, 1904?:
http://www.dcnrhs.org/learn/washington-d-c-railroad-history/history-of-the-long-bridge
Now THAT'S an example of government planning ahead. If only ours could do it today.
Also of note from the same article:
"By 1937-38 the Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac Railroad needed some new equipment, so they ordered five modern 4-8-4 steam locomotives from Baldwin Locomotive Works in Chester, Pa., a suburb of Philadelphia. Amazingly, they were several inches too wide to properly clear the tunnels in Washington. More importantly they had too heavy of an axle-load to traverse the Long Bridge.
These two factors forever consigned these beautiful engines to the Virginia side of the river and freight service. Although they were pressed into emergency passenger service on occasion, they always stayed on the south side of the river. One can only wonder how they were delivered from their Pennsylvania manufacturer to the RF&P at that time."
Now, that may or may not be true. I'd sure like to see more on that.
Also, regarding the various draw spans on the Potomac, my recollection is that they were made that way to allow commercial ship traffic up to the Georgetown commercial waterfront, and maybe further up to Great Falls.
Ed
I don't know the answer to that one. On one occasion on a southbound C&O with plain-jane coaches, during the wait for departure, it was hot in the car (summer) and I opened the window to get a breeze and some fresh air, and stupidly fogot to close it as we accelerated from the station. I was eating a cucumber sandwich that Mom had backed in a brown bag with other edibles to save dining car costs. As we entered the tunnel and I was closing my teeth on the sandwich, a cinder flew in the window, landed between my teeth and got swallowed along with some cucumber and bread. I didn't pay that any heed, but then did close the window. After less than an hour, the lunch did not remain in my stomach and existed in the men's room in reverse from the direction it entered my stomach. I was feeling OK by the time we got to Charlottesville, and stayed on the train until we got to Union Station, which was within walking distance of Rugby Road and Rugby Place, but since a bus was in sight, rode the Rugby Road bus again.
The Rugby Road overpass in Charlottesville was a place to watch the C&O main to the west. I saw Greenbriars on both passengers and frieght, and an occasional 2-8-2 on frieghts, but not very many freights. I never saw solid coal trains or articulateds, those apparently came through at night or were run only on the James River line to the south. Possibly also C&O originated coal for the northeast, that formerly went by ship from Newport News (restricted by submarine threats and heavy port use for export to front lines across the Atlantic) went by some Western Maryland or direct to B&O routing that bypassed Washington.
Sally and her husband lived in a colored neighborhood in the northeast section of Charlottesville, within site of the Southern main line on an embankment. Most Southern freights were behind 2-8-2's, with lots of all-refer trains, but I saw a A-B-B-A FT EMD-hauled trains for the very firts time at that location. I may have seen DL-109's on frieghts on the New Haven before then, possibly not.
Come to think of it, I never did see an artriculated, B&O or C&O or whatever, at Patomic yard. I did see Pennsy steam as well as electric power, however.
Washington Union was switched entirely by a fleet of 0-6-0 switchers identacle to PRR B-6's, except they had "Washington Union Terminal" in small gold letters on the sides of the slope-backed tenders.
If any Florida trains bypassed Washington Union Station and ran with PRR crews and electric power to Potomac Yard., they were either special trains or extra sections of regular trains. All trains in the RF&P, SAL, and ACL timetables with through cars to and from NY stopped at Washington, without exception. If anyone has a timetable that proves me wrong on this point, speak (write) up. But it would have been logical for specials and extra section to have bypassed the station, and I just never had that experience in my travels.
I think RF&P and C&O engine crews worked through to Washington in passenger service. But not if they were already exceeding time-in-service laws. That may have been the reason for the Southern engine-crew shuttle.
I know of fire-less steam engines used in transit operations around the mid 1800's, but how did smokeless engines work?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
But I DID ride behind lots of steam in and out of Washington. 1. All C&O trains, always a Pacific. 2. All Southern trains except the Tennesean and Southerner, also always a Pacific. 3. The Havanna Special, Everglades, Palmland and Sunland on the RF&P, including the great 4-8-4's. (Also, although I did not ride it, I believe the "Blue and Grey" was also pulled by steam, and usually a 4-8-4, but possibly a Pacific. And on one occasion at least and probably two on the Florida streamliners, a 4-8-4 took us from Acca to Washington Union Station, northbound. My understanding was that the track to Alexandria was dispatched by the RF&P. Ownership is another matter entirely. Someone may wish to check on this. It may be that there was a dispatcher rotation.
The C&O used Pacifics east of Charlottesville on both trains to Newport News and to Washington. The Greenbriers, the 4-8-4's, ran west from Charlottesville. The Newport News and Washington sections were combined at the Charlottesville C&O station, and the Greenbiers ran west from there, usually stopping at the Charlottesville Union Station as well. C&O and Southern tickets werre interchageable to Charlottesville. I usually traveled on a PRR-Southern ticket. That way if there was space (very seldom) at train time, I could return on the Southerner or Tennesean. The C&O had comfortable (reclining seat?) six-wheel truck air-conditioned coaches on the George Washington, but the other C&O trains and Southern trains had plain-Jane coaches no better than a classic PRR P-70. Many of my trips had multiple southern destinations, such as going to Charlottesville, then over to Richmond, then to a stopover in Washington with Aunt Sue (A WAAC with an important Washington job in WWII), and then to New York. In retrospect, I should have used the B&O more often.
"2. I know SOU operated smokeless steamers from WASH - Alexandria due to DC anti smoke regs.
3. If RF&P and C&O operated their own smokeless or used SOU's I have no idea? "
It's really getting deep now.
2. I know SOU operated smokeless steamers from WASH - Alexandria due to DC anti smoke regs.
3. If RF&P and C&O operated their own smokeless or used SOU's I have no idea? See also below about GG-1s.
4. I remember reading sometime before AMTRAK that 1 set of SOU diesel engineers & firemen ran only WASH - ALEX for a one full days' pay??? That would lead to conclusion that during steam days the engine crews only ran same distance??
5. What does this mean as to how RF&P engine crews operated???
7. Once AMTRAK crews took over operating the trains from the various RRs did the Engine crews then run thru to/from WASH??
8. Some of the more exclusive Florida trains had their engines changed to GG-1s and PRR engine crews at Pot yard and bypassed WASH entirely.
Dave, as far as no steamers on RF&P southbounds out of Washington Union Station the only thing I can surmise is that RF&P's first series of 4-8-4's were a little too big to enter Washington proper, the clearances would'nt allow it. As far as others are concerned I'll have to hit the books. One thing is certain, the RF&P was a class act, and a highly coveted job for the locals. As a matter of fact, Richmonders used to say that RF&P stood for "Relatives, Friends, and Parents", the meaning of which was you had to know someone to get a job there! My mother told me the Moran tugboat company in New York was the same way.
And won't the oldtimers tell you that the RF&P was also pretty much a one-speed railroad where everything rolled along at about 60 mph, merchandize, peddlers, and passenger trains, and even coal? One thing I could never figure out as a kid was that a few times 4-8-4's did replace diesels on the Silver Meteor and Champion northbound, but I never saw one on the point at Washington Union southbound. Either, the cut-off diesels went south from Richmond on a lessor train, like the Havana Special and Everglades, the Sunland and Plamland, or the RF&P used them on one of these trains northbound to Washington after whatever needed servicing was acomplished. If you have some friends who can answer that question, I would thank you.
I have a good picture of Ashland in my mind. Many times I was at the rear vestibule looking out as we traveled the center reservation in the main street. And Doug Riddel did keep me up to date on the use of the station as the town museum and visitors center.
On the Soutthern railroad, on the other hand, I did see a Pacific, green and gold splender and all, on the point of the diesel, once northbound for the Southerner, and once northbound on the Tennesean, at Charloteseville. Never saw this on an RF&P, ACL, or SAL passenger train, although I did see freight diesels and steam together on frieghts,. but not on the RF&P. My impression was that double-heading was very rare or non-existant on the RF&P main line.
I remember the Richmond streetcar system very well. The ex Eastern-Mass Bradly two-window front lighweights on Highland Park Hull Street, and the couble-truck Birneys on Broad, Broad and Main, and Ginter Park, the latter the line I rode most often. Some double-truck Birneys were probably second hand from Providence, RI, but some were always Richmond cars . These cars were all blue with silver or white trim and lettering . Then there were the single-truck Birneys on Clay Street, and older deck-roof wood cars that came out on several lines just during rush hours, These two types were orange. I had my first experience with Jim Crow, other than segregated coaches on trains, on a Richmond streetcar. In New York I sometimes had a treat of sitting on a motorman's stool at the rear of a car, when the turn-around time at 42nd Street and 5th Avenue was not enough for the operator to fold it agains the wall to the left ot the controller. So of course I tried the same privilege in Richmond, where upon a well dressed colored woman said: "Sonny, you should move to the front of the car and sit with the white folks. This part is reserved for us colored folks."
Much later in life I got to work on the Carpenter Theatre (not the latest renovation), St. James Church (work completed by Gerry Marshall and Dan Clayton after my move to Israel), and the Federal Reserve building (on old SAL freight yard land). I missed the streetcars, though.
Dave, enjoyed your last post! Living here in Richmond Va. I've been told by those who were there that during WW2 train frequency through the town of Ashland on the RF&P was at least one every 15 minutes, both north and south. It was a railfans heaven on earth, or would have been if the reason for it wasn't in the back of everyone's mind at the time. Old RF&P veterans get a laugh every time CSX moans about having to schedule Amtrak trains along the line. "Gee," they say. "WE never had any trouble mixing freight and passengers!" Ashlands still a great train watching spot. The old station's still there, with a nice RF&P museum in it. And if you're a model railroader there's "Train Town" hobbies right down the street.
My memories about railroads during WWII are pretty accurate. They were my main interest in life, and often during classes at Columbia Grammar School and its highschool, I would "daydream" about experiences in riding trains, reviewing memories, instead of listening to the teacher. Math was different because I wanted to an engineer who would design locomotives. In 1952 I did spend a summer doing useful work for EMD in LaGrange, but Professor Balsbow (Balsbau?) at MIT, my Transportation Planning professor said: "David, railroads have no future in the USA. If you want to be a railway electrification engineer, go to France and become a Frenchman." Meanwhile, I found Leo Beranek's courses on acoustics (taken to make my hi-fi better) so fascinating that I became an acoustical engineer, and my Army (1955-1956, after ROTC at MIT 1949-1953) service had me testing long-range loudspeakers, agent-type mineature radios, and a complete mobile TV broadcasting station, among other similar matters. And lots of opportunity to visit the Hamlet Seabord yards and ride the Seabord and Atlantic Coast LIne trains, including reviving a childhood friendship with ACL Dining Car Steward Jim Masters. My first long-distance trip by train by myself was at the age of 10 during the school spring break. A Mister Eppler, a German Jewish refugee living in our family home's basement apartment, went with me on the PRR to Washington, then went off to the State Department on his own business. I looked at the departure board and then boarded the C&O train to Charlottesville. At the C&O (not the Union) Station, I called my relatives, and Sally, the maid, the wife of the ex-N&W fireman, told me to catch the Rugby Road bus to Rugby Place. All at age ten in 1942. The ex-fireman had a responsible position in a maintenance at UofVirginia. But he missed his old job and loved to talk trains. I think his move to Charlottesvile was because of his marriage to Sally.
But latent disflexia does strike once and a while . The Congressional's running time was 215 minutes and the Silver Meteor and Champion were variously at 225 and 230 minutes. Most PRR NY-Washington expresses were timed at 235 or 240 minutes. I discovered my dislexic error (subtracting from three hours instead of four) after I left the Hebrew U. computer terminal that I use, and this is the first opportunity to access the internet following that error.
Also, on occasion, during WWII a northbound Silver Meteor, Champion, or Southerner, would simply be tacked on behind a regular Washington - New York PRR express train and not run as a separate train. The NY express would load on a lower lever track, with the loading taking place towards the front of the platform. This meant a departure 5 minutes late, but the time would be made up, usually by Philadelphia. The streamliner was already late and got delayed a few minutes more.
Also on occasion, the Champion or Silver Meteor would loose its diesel at Acca? yard in Richmond , and one of the beautful RF&P 4-8-4's would make just as good time to Alexandria.
The southbound freight car on the Southerner may have been for Coastline Optical company (or something by that name) in Farhope, Alabama, which was making optical equpment for weapons, and may have needed components manufactured on Long Island (possibly Fairchild?), It would have been straighforward for the LIRR to deliver to the car to Sunnyside Yard right behind the GG1 before the power coupled up. This would then bypass Patomic Yard, which was also running at capacity. North of Patomic yard, freights had PRR or B&O power and crews, and south of the yard it was mostly Southern and RF&P with the C&O somewhat a minor player. If there were any "run-through" freights, they still exchanged power and crews at Patomic Yard. I don't believe this was ever done on the passenger main at Alexandria. It would be interesting to inspect train sheets for the RF&P dispatched line between Alexandria and Washington Union Station to see just how many trains crossed that Patomic River Bridge each day 1942-1944. I suspect the number would be pretty close to 120, but might even be as high as 200.
selector Y's were at their best pulling/shoving hard @ 10-20 mph, but they were often doing more. Have video of them moving smartly at what must be close to 45 mph. Crandell
Y's were at their best pulling/shoving hard @ 10-20 mph, but they were often doing more. Have video of them moving smartly at what must be close to 45 mph.
Crandell
Agree. The Y's no doubt could move comfortably at 45-50 mph, but their peak power was down around 20-25 mph.
tdmidget " As I recall the timetable didn't care if you did 75 mph, even with a Y6." No, but the Y6 would care. It was designed for about 25-30 mph. I think Dave's memories are a bit varnished by time to say the least. How old WERE you then Dave. 13,14?
" As I recall the timetable didn't care if you did 75 mph, even with a Y6."
No, but the Y6 would care. It was designed for about 25-30 mph.
I think Dave's memories are a bit varnished by time to say the least. How old WERE you then Dave. 13,14?
Another myth is that the Y6 couldn't stretch its legs. Maybe not as much as above, but, not that far away either.
timz BigJim: Then you haven't read the employee timetable which clearly states what the speed limits are just as they do today. The limit it clearly stated was 78 mph for passenger and the same for freight between Norfolk and Poe in 1953, and the same between Kenova and Columbus in 1954.
BigJim: Then you haven't read the employee timetable which clearly states what the speed limits are just as they do today.
The title of this thread is "WWII and High Speed Steam" and clearly 1953 does not fall between 1941 - 1945. The timetable effective April 1, 1945 only allows a maximum of 50mph for classes A ,K & E in this same area of the Norfolk Div.. The highest these same classes were allowed is 60 between Clay & Montvale and Kinney & Forest.
BigJimThen you haven't read the employee timetable which clearly states what the speed limits are just as they do today.
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