Trains.com

3751 Trip to Steam Festival 2011 Suspended

6366 views
18 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 776 posts
3751 Trip to Steam Festival 2011 Suspended
Posted by wabash2800 on Friday, December 24, 2010 7:34 AM

Here is the scoop from the festival's promoter:

"Train Festival 2011 organizers, California Zephyr Railcar Charters and the San Bernardino Railroad Historical Society regrets to announce the operation on Santa Fe steam locomotive #3751 to Rock Island, Il in July of 2011 has been suspended.

When planning of Train Festival 2011 began several months ago, we shared our proposal of steam locomotives and their proposed movements with high-ranking officials at BNSF Railway. Provided that they were to be Amtrak trains, we were told that BNSF would 'likely' approve our requests, including that of the ATSF 3751, from Los Angeles to Rock Island and return.

In the intervening time, circumstances have changed, and BNSF is now projecting greatly increased traffic volumes this summer on their Transcon corridor. This is great news for the railroad as traffic on the BNSF Railway continues to increase as the economy picks ups. Our trips would use the Transcon between Albuquerque and Los Angeles.

Steam specials are highly consumptive of management time, and of course attract hundreds, sometimes thousands, of railfans, which in turn requires significant efforts on the part of the railroad's police. The 3751 trip would have had us on the property for 18 days, during the time when traffic volumes would be at or near their peak.

For this reason, BNSF has reconsidered their position, and respectfully declined our proposed move of ATSF 3751 via the Transcon corridor to Train Festival 2011.

Other options are being explored to bring the #3751 East. In the meantime several excursions are being worked on and proposed for Train Festival 2011. They will be announced on the website www.trainfestival2011.com when they have received final approval.

We are sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused, no one is more disappointed than the organizers and the several months that have been invested in planning. We would like to thank the BNSF Railway and Amtrak for the hundreds of hours working on this routing.

Anyone that had purchased a ticket with the intention to ride behind the #3751 may get a FULL refund, hassle free. Just send your request to tickets@trainfestival2011.com and a refund will be given. Please provide the name the order was under in your request."

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 102 posts
Posted by Cajon_92 on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:46 PM

Thanks for the post, its ashame BNSF turned the trip down, but you can understand their reasons of not wanting steam on their Transcon. Hopefully we will see the 3751 moving around in 2011 even if it's just within So Cal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/golden_state_rails/sets/72157625569521197/

Cajon

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 602 posts
Posted by Bruce Kelly on Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:27 PM

The announcement says "we were told that BNSF would 'likely' approve our requests."

Did this trip move beyond the "likely" stage before ticket sales started?

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 139 posts
Posted by Mikec6201 on Monday, January 17, 2011 5:30 PM

OK even with an increase in traffic, Amtrack will STILL run. With the proper planning running of 3751 should not take any extra time, correct? Running a train is running a train. Other issue , railfans. As railfans we still must obey the law. One of which is NO TRESSPASSING!!!. Railroads are dangerous and a tresspasser may become injured of even killed . Anyone tresspasing on RR property is doing so at their own risk and deserves whatever he gets.  Really a few RR police on overtime should not be a problem though. And really "management time" come on here. running a train is running a train is running a train! Sure everyone will be more aware of the special nature of the event, but there isn't really any reason to dwell on it, run it as a normal train!

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 8,955 posts
Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, January 17, 2011 6:44 PM

Certainly a disappointment to the 3751 fans, but you gotta remember, it's BNSF's railroad.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 776 posts
Posted by wabash2800 on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 10:19 AM

I'm with Mike. I still think they could do it but I guess I'm in the minority. If the guy at the top would have enough manhood to do it, it would be done. I am not sure why the RR feels it has to have RR police cover every mile. They could run it right behind an Amtrak train and that would be a window that would have to be open anyway. The locomoitive was built to pull passenger trains as speed  and has a good record. The RR could also run it during downtime, say around the 4th of July. Some managers would have to be out but, hey, when I worked management, I had to work if the boss said so, and I didn't get paid overtime. But the locomotive may still get to Rock Island as Jason has suspended the train but NOT canceled it and is still working on a solution, even if just the locomotive gets there. It would be nice to have a third alternative to BNSF and UP. And I'm sure the utility companies ofen wish that too. I can now see why some shippers have cases before the Surface Transportation Board. It's a oligopoly and that is also dangerous because what few parties there are, they do what the others do without fear of competition or loss of customers. Bad precedent.

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • 7,486 posts
Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:51 PM

You are wrong.  Diesels can run al the way.  Steam needs watering and greasing on average every hundred miles.  Want to take a 1950 car out and run it across the desert at even 40 mph.  If itt breaks down are you going to NAPA for parts?  What if a drive rod or bearing goes and it can't be moved.  How many bridges have been downrated.since steam?  How far has it been run previously so that it can run that far?  What contingencies exist for maintenance and what if it derails? Who is going to run it that knows the route?  The average en.gineer age who drove steam s well into his 80s.  Monumental idea.  Monumental logistics and very costly to all.

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: SE Minnesota
  • 6,847 posts
Posted by jrbernier on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:24 PM

ATSF ran 3751 a number of years ago from California to Chicago and return.  It was known as the 'Death March' - Figure about 3 crew districts per day, then rest the crew and service the engine.  Just look at the daily progress of the 4449/Freedom Train in the mid 70's.  Just running the engine 'light' took BN about 2 days to get from Omaha to Chicago.

  I would love to see 3751 make the trip, but I also realize that the logistics of the trip are rather harsh.  UP does a great job with their two steamers, and has lot's of experience at it - but again does not make spectacular progress moving these engines around their system.

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 776 posts
Posted by wabash2800 on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:15 PM

Well, than, we might as well resign ourselves to the fact that what happened with the 4449 in 2009 will never happen again. Everyone is convinced that it just can't be done.

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • 7,486 posts
Posted by ndbprr on Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:48 AM

That's not the point.  The point is it is not ridng the interstate and pulling into a gas station.  It takes an organzed and  detailed plan and even under the best of conditions is disruptive so don't blame BNSF fo saying no to a group of ameteurs.

  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Atlanta
  • 11,971 posts
Posted by oltmannd on Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:38 PM

ndbprr

That's not the point.  The point is it is not ridng the interstate and pulling into a gas station.  It takes an organzed and  detailed plan and even under the best of conditions is disruptive so don't blame BNSF fo saying no to a group of ameteurs.

You have this exactly right!  And, it's likely consuming more than typical train's worth of capacity on the railroad with all the watering and fuel stop.  It's a big, logistics nightmare, much of which is born by  the local operating guys - who need to spend their already oversold time taking care of business.

Still, it would have been cool!

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 776 posts
Posted by wabash2800 on Friday, January 21, 2011 10:58 PM

I take it that's why they can't or don't want to deal with Amtrak and the passenger trains are typically late?

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, January 22, 2011 6:44 AM

wabash2800

I take it that's why they can't or don't want to deal with Amtrak and the passenger trains are typically late?

3751 would probably require a lot more en route maintenance and support than the Southwest Chief.  The Southwest Chief also would, as a whole, maintain track speed better than 3751.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • 7,486 posts
Posted by ndbprr on Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:06 AM

 Given a choice every rr would probably tell Amtrak to take a hike.  Not easy to do with every agency you deal with is federal as is Amtrak.  

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 673 posts
Posted by Sawtooth500 on Saturday, January 22, 2011 1:14 PM

How about a creative solution by taking the road less taken? Really, BNSF and UP are the only alternatives to get the train past the continental divide, there simply are no other tracks, but who said that it needs to stay on the Transcon all the time?

The fact is that the train would only need to be on the transcon partially. In california until the point where there's a connection with the Arizona and California - then take that to the peavine and hop north back to the transcon. Then at Albuquerque take the Raton Pass route which is devoid of anything but Amtrak. Now that takes you up to Kansas, and at this point there are enough myriad branch lines and short lines to get the train to Rock Island while avoiding most mainlines. 

Sure, it's the road less traveled, and track speeds would be slower, but it would be more interesting, give many more opportunities for stops and maintenance, and for the most part keep out of the way of mainline freight operations by staying most of the time on lightly trafficked secondary lines. 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • 776 posts
Posted by wabash2800 on Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:24 PM

That might happen. The last I checked (on the website) Jason is still working on an alternative solution. Its his event and he is dealing with the railroads probably with kid gloves, political politeness and $$$. His crew's event in Owosso in 2009 was very successful so I suppose that if there is any way shape or form (or just the locomotive) that the 3751 can show, Jason can pull it off.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, January 24, 2011 10:09 AM

En route maintenance and upkeep may well be a dealbreaker.  There aren't too many groups around that have any real experience with such a long-distance movement.

BNSF has precedent for turning down moves that have the potential to tie the Transcon in knots.  Some years ago, UPS made a proposal for a high-speed freight service for which they would pay a super-premium rate, the so-called Bullet train.  BNSF ran a test train in line with the UPS proposal and found that such a service would be more bother than it was worth.  BNSF did not bid on the proposal.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Back home on the Chi to KC racetrack
  • 2,011 posts
Posted by edbenton on Monday, January 24, 2011 10:44 AM

We are forgetting one thing.  The BNSF has trackage rights over the old Sp line that the UP does not like to use acroos colorado why not use the 3751 in a ferry move across that.  The old DRGW and SP line since th UP does not want to use it.

Always at war with those that think OTR trucking is EASY.
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • 673 posts
Posted by Sawtooth500 on Monday, January 24, 2011 11:27 AM

edbenton

We are forgetting one thing.  The BNSF has trackage rights over the old Sp line that the UP does not like to use acroos colorado why not use the 3751 in a ferry move across that.  The old DRGW and SP line since th UP does not want to use it.

Are you referring to the Moffat Route? UP uses that for some freights, but it's not their primary route like the Overland Route. The problem, however, is getting the train there from LA. The only tracks would be UP's line through Las Vegas which is very busy as a large portion of traffic going from LA to Chicago resides on that line. 

Really, the only way I can think of to move 3751 while completely avoiding all main lines is for it to have it work it's way north to Washington on lightly used lines, and then from there go through Idaho, Montana, and the Dakotas en route to Rock Island. There are many more branch lines available using that routing. But that's very circuitous...

The fact is that going direct (or anywhere close to direct) from LA would require good portions of the train to be on busy mainline trackage. 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy