I saw it in the shop after the fall color tour with SP4449. It's all torn down. Will the Friends ship it back in pieces? I think the Friends own most of the rolling stock. It'll be a shame to break up a matched set like that. (261+the MILW Hiawatha cars)
They will put the engine back together and return it, however condition I don't know.
There is 2 years on the lease left, they should give it a last hurrah really and run a farewell trip.
The NRM says they will be looking to keep it in operation, the friends of 261 might not be involved but it might take a serious investment group to do what the NRM looks for.
Maybe some magic happens since the announcement was made...or not, but its a wait and see, but for now, the engine would get returned.
The mumble is to look at 265 at the Illinois Railway Museum.
Really, it could be a positive thing, NRM still interested in 261's operation, Fo261 may switch to another engine become friends of 265 (rumor) and you get 2 Milwaukee steamers running, maybe a double header sometime, so not to look negative on the whole situation. Fof261 may not be able to handle the financial requirements the NRM looks for.
I see it as good and bad news. The good news is that the friends isn't dead and will look for another engine. The bad news is 261 going back to Green Bay. Yes, I know they said that they want 261 to run but I really don't think anyone is going to put the time into it that the Friends did. I think it'll end up getting stuffed and mounted, eventually getting put on display inside.
Right now even if 261 is put back together it won't be able to run. It still has to go through the mandated inspection before it can run again. The friends don't want to spend money doing the inspection only to have to give back the engine a year later, as they wouldn't get done until at least 2011.
I'm trying to change the title of this thread, I don't know how the software will handle that.
I'd bet that 261 will never steam again unless/until it passes from NRM ownership. Given what has happened, I just can't conceive of anyone agreeing to accomplish the work necessary for the federally mandated rebuilding without being able to control the long term future.
I wish someone from the NRM would jump into this thread and explain their position. I just can't see the logic that is driving them.
I look upon 261 going back to Green Bay as a major setback to the railfan community. Every year I pay dues to several organizations that actually operate rail equipment, although I may never visit their operation again. Since I can't support everybody, my choices are driven in large part by who is attempting to maintain a steam program.
I've heard the original plan was 4449 would "cover" for 261 this fall, then next year when 4449 was down for repairs, 261 would cover for it. Of course now 4449 is apparently looking for a new home. Hey, the FO261 orange and red passenger cars blend together pretty well with 4449....
I'm sorry about the title of the thread. I knew better. Brain phart i guess.
How about one of those Chi-com steamers the IAIS has in storage in Newton?
What a shame. I hope they get 265 running but thats a pie in the sky idea right now.NRM thinks they can run 261 like the friend did? Good luck with that.I have a feeling when all is said and done they will regret this.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
May be they should become the Friends of 3006. Because the CB&Q hudson that IRM has is in much better condition than the Milwalkee 265. I would think that would be a bigger draw than the Milwakee 4-8-4. (Now I'll get all the Milwakee road fans mad at me)
The thing is that I believe some of 261's parts came from the 265. I would think all parts that were borrowed will either be sent back to where they came from or used on whatever the Friends restores next. There are several possibilities out there for a guest next year. I heard SOO 2719 mentioned a couple times, I would think 2719 or sister 1003 wouldn't be bad substitutes next year. Of course, the one good thing about this is that we may get to see many different steam engines from many roads running excursions until a new engine is restored. Of course losing 261 for that is still a major blow, there are enough steam engines sitting around that could operate rusting away. Maybe they could revive Frisco 1522, it's sitting in good condition under a shed at the St. Louis museum and it sounded like the museum there would be willing to let it run again.
I still think a Milwaukee Road engine will be picked. The friends already has the Milwaukee Road trainset so 265 would fit in perfectly, plus I think 265 is in better shape than what 261 was in before it was restored. Also, the people in the shop really wouldn't have to start new then since they already have the experience of working with 261 for all these years. 265 is currently stored inside a barn at IRM with the Nebraska Zephyr and a GG1, so it is well protected at this time.
nwo4rf May be they should become the Friends of 3006. Because the CB&Q hudson that IRM has is in much better condition than the Milwalkee 265. I would think that would be a bigger draw than the Milwakee 4-8-4. (Now I'll get all the Milwakee road fans mad at me)
I don't know. I won't be happy with anything smaller than a 4-8-4. Anything else is just too small for me. Well ok maybe a 2-8-4 or a 2-10-4, but I just don't want to see the group go from a 4-8-4 to something tiny like a 2-6-2 or whatever.
Your friendly neighborhood CNW fan.
The CB&Q Hudsons (4-6-4) were the largest built. It would be the closest thing to having a real Hiawatha. It just would not have the streamlineing. I would not call it a tiny locomotive.
The heaviest 4-6-4 was C&O's L2a - 443,000 lbs
Other heavyweight Hudsons (engine only):
C&O's L2 - 439,500 lbs
ATSF 3460 (streamlined) - 420,400 lbs
Milw F7 - 415,000 lbs
ATSF 3460 class - 412,380 lbs
C&NW E4 - 412,000 lbs
wjstix I've heard the original plan was 4449 would "cover" for 261 this fall, then next year when 4449 was down for repairs, 261 would cover for it. Of course now 4449 is apparently looking for a new home. Hey, the FO261 orange and red passenger cars blend together pretty well with 4449....
Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. The SP 4449, the SP&S 700 and the OR&N 197, have found a new home, but it will be 2011, or 2012 IIRC before it will be ready. All three of these locomotives are OWNED by the City of Portland, OR, I don't think that the 4449, is going that far from home long term. There already is a Friends of the 4449, but if the FO261 care to move to Portland, I would imagine that the FO4449 would welcome them into the existing FO4449.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
You get one of them Q hudsons running adn i will be more than happy to run one. Sowould about 3 other guys who actually did run them in service ( granted by the time this could be pulled off they would already be running them at the big railroad in the sky) Great fellas who were Q employees and cometo RR days and give little tours of the one there.I know how to pop the top of the speed recorder and where to put the block of wood lol.
Seriously though nothing wrong with one of them Hudsons. I dnt think you have to worry about a 2-6-2 in mainline service. But one of them Alice the Goon beasts could really turn the wheels.
Someone here will probably know the name - I'm drawing a blank now - but the guy who's like the "chief mechanical officer" for FO261 talked to our RR club about a year ago. He said that one reason they picked 261 to restore and use was that it was relatively new (being built in WW2) and didn't have as many problem issues like asbestos etc. that the other engines they looked at did. So...it could be if worst comes to worst they could find another engine, but it might be harder to get into working order than 261 was. In any case, even if they lose 261 the friends will probably stay in operation in some form. He noted that they basically break even or take a slight loss on 261 trips, but come out ahead on leasing their passenger cars for other fantrip use or to private individuals.
From what I understand (someone from IRM could correct me) The Q Hudson has one bad bearing on the rear axel other than that the Locomotive could tech be fired up and run now ( i know it would still have to be taken apart and inspected) But from what I understand the engine is in that good of condition. Which for me I would think that would put it high on the list of possibilities.
Here is the text of the Official Press Release on the MILW 261
News Release Contact: Steve Sandberg Friends of the 261 to return Milwaukee Road 261 to National Railroad Museum MINNEAPOLIS, Minnesota, Nov. 20, 2009: The “Friends of the 261” was unable to accept the final offer for an extension of its lease agreement for Milwaukee Road 261 from the National Railroad Museum of Green Bay, Wis. As a result, the famous steam locomotive, which was built in 1944 and used by the “Friends” in excursion service from 1993 to 2008, will eventually return to the Museum as a display. The National Railroad Museum, which owns the 261, and the “Friends” have been attempting to negotiate a new lease for the past several years. The Friends asked for at least a 15-year lease agreement while the NRM’s final offer was for a ten-year term. Friends of the 261 and North Star Rail Chief Operating Officer Steve Sandberg said the decision to return 261 was based on simple economics. “The Museum’s latest offer would only extend us a ten-year lease, but under current Federal regulations boiler overhauls have a 15-year term. The cost for the 10-year lease was $20,000 per year with a four percent increase annually compounding. After incurring the cost of rebuilding the locomotive, the Friends would be paying in addition an average of $25,000 per year for the 10-year period. After ten years we would have to give the locomotive back with 33 percent of its service life still left. It’s hard to amortize the cost of a 15-year boiler overhaul in a ten-year time frame. We just could not economically justify spending $400,000 to $600,000 on an overhaul, plus paying a substantially increased lease payment, for only a ten-year lease term.” For several years the “Friends” has been cross subsidizing the cost of 261 operations by leasing or chartering passenger cars from a fleet of cars it has built up over the years. This has enabled the not for profit Friends of 261 to keep the 261 in operation – the only privately sponsored mainline steam organization to do so, year after year. Sandberg said it has been a privilege to restore and operate 261 over the past 15 years. “It has been one of the joys of my life to operate Milwaukee Road 261, especially since my grandfather used to run the locomotive on the Milwaukee Road when it was in regular service. I want to thank the National Railroad Museum for entrusting our organization with this historic engine for the last decade and a half.” Even with the conclusion of 261 operations, the Friends of the 261 will remain active. The group will continue to charter and lease its extensive fleet of passenger cars for Amtrak and excursion trips. In 2010, the group is working to bring another main line steam locomotive to Minneapolis for several excursions, and, in the long run, may acquire another steam locomotive to restore to operation.
There was a rumor at Owosso, that the 261 was down, and the MILW coaches would head to Oregon for 197/4449/700/etc. do we know if they'll go back to NRM now, go to the rumored 265, or as bove and join the Oregon Preservation?
-Morgan
FlashwaveThere was a rumor at Owosso, that the 261 was down, and the MILW coaches would head to Oregon for 197/4449/700/etc. do we know if they'll go back to NRM now, go to the rumored 265, or as bove and join the Oregon Preservation?
The Coaches belong to the "Friends" and are not going anywhere, they do rent them out though.
beaulieu Flashwave There was a rumor at Owosso, that the 261 was down, and the MILW coaches would head to Oregon for 197/4449/700/etc. do we know if they'll go back to NRM now, go to the rumored 265, or as bove and join the Oregon Preservation? The Coaches belong to the "Friends" and are not going anywhere, they do rent them out though.
Flashwave There was a rumor at Owosso, that the 261 was down, and the MILW coaches would head to Oregon for 197/4449/700/etc. do we know if they'll go back to NRM now, go to the rumored 265, or as bove and join the Oregon Preservation?
Yes as I noted the leasing out of the cars is what keeps the organization afloat - the generally lose money on fantrips with 261, but make it up in renting/leasing the cars to other organizations and individuals. They have a reasonably large no. of restored passenger cars that are all up to AMTRAK standards so can be hauled in regular Amtrak trains. Even without a steam locomotive they could keep going for some time just with their car leasing "business".
BTW only 3 or 4 of the cars are former Milwaukee cars, the silver coaches with maroon window bands are former Pennsylvania cars built for "clocker" service.
If the NRM had the funds and volunteer staff needed to get the 261 up and running again, they actually would be better advised to use those resources to instead take better care of their overall collection. Even some of the stuff kept indoors - in cramped buildings -- needs attention.
A CB&Q Hudson back in steam is a very intriguing notion. There is no shortage of them in various parks to supply needed parts much as 265 did for 261.
Soo Line 1003, a very nice 2-8-2 kept at the Wisconsin Automobile Museum in Hartford WI (a museum well worth visiting by the way for many reasons) is also going to be in need of an overhaul and with no funding source to pay for it. It has no outings planned for the rest of the year and I have heard no rumors of 2010 activity. It too might join the ranks of "servicable" but not running. But both of the Soo Line engines, while beautiful locomotives and lots of fun to see, are not really the sorts of mainline steam that can haul long distances at Amtrak speeds (which is what the host railroads want to be assured of) with a consist long enough to help pay for the trip with tickets sold.
Dave Nelson
I was fortunate enough to have a cab ride in the 2719 back on October 11 and can vouch for the fact that there's a plate on the backhead that states that the maximum speed for the locomotive is 79 MPH. It was a great ride, but there's a big difference between 30 MPH up the north shore to Two Harbors with 4 cars in tow and running at track speed down the CP from the Twin Cities to Winona, as I did on October 10 behind the 4449 pulling something like 16 cars. I'm sure the 2719 can get out and run at a reasonable speed on Class IV track (once the stokers fixed and operational), but as a previous writer stated she still won't pull the big trains that the 261, 4449, 844 etc. can and have any hope of getting a reasonable amount of revenue coming in.
As an aside, I realize that investagative reporting isn't Trains usual style, but what about it Jim Wrinn? How about an examination of what went wrong between the Friends of the 261/Northstar Rail and the NRM that looks like it will result in the loss of one more living, breathing reminder of big steam, joining the likes of the 611, 1218, the 1361 and others as lifeless monuments.
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